PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[Crushnight]

The best way to tell if a hlr is struggling and to start thinking of using Clemency is when a healer does this:

Whm - cure II, cure II ,cure II
Sch - adlo, adlo, adlo
Ast - benefic II, Benefic II, Benefic II

At this point they are out of cds and are starting to panic and struggle as they are using all their gcds to keep the tank alive, all three healer kits can handle all pulls so long as the party collectively are skilled enough to do the pull. If the pull is possible the likelihood of Clemency being needed drops drastically.

[SaberMaxwell]

The "just make your own Party" argument, love seeing it as if it supposed to be the correct answer here. Speedrunners are supposed to group up and average / below-average players are supposed to be expected when entering DF, not the other way around.

Frankly, being a speedrunner myself, I am siding with Maeka in this case. In Duty Finder, everyone is equally responsible for survival, provided they have defensive or restorative tools in their kit. By default, this includes PLDs Clemency. If the healer is clearly being starved of resources during "optimal play", the next correct thing would be playing what is generally accepted as "suboptimal", as in using Clemency to reduce the healing burden. I believe I said it before, but I'll happily say it again:

"Survival > DPS. A dead person does no DPS."

The real problem is that noone knows when they should actually use Clemency because everyone tells them to not use it ever, meaning they never learn the situational awareness for it. And no, "if Healer is dead" is already a bit too late unless the Healer got one-shot. Personally, if I don't know the healer quite yet and don't know their responsiveness to my HP dropping, during my first Requiescat window I'll pop at least 1x Clemency to gauge if it ends up overhealing / unnecessary or not.

Maeka is every bit in the right to expect people to do sub optimal things to smoothen the run in the same way others can expect of Maeka to play suboptimally (no DPS for instance or clipping / triple use of OGCD) if it means saving them.

Nope. You don't expect *anything* with DF. Don't expect casual slow runs or speed runs, you take what you're given and you pre form if you want something specific.

[Maeka]

Nope. You don't expect *anything* with DF. Don't expect casual slow runs or speed runs, you take what you're given and you pre form if you want something specific.

....which is why I talk about evaluating what you have in your group. Not just the healers, but the DPS as well.

Pulling 2 groups at the start should give you a good idea if the healers AND the DPS know what they're doing, because the mob pack should die fast, healer should be throwing DPS spells, and if neither of those two things are happening, chances are, 3 group pulls are a very bad idea. If the mobs are dying too slow, the healer, regardless of how good they are, might run out of resources. If the healer is not throwing DPS, they are likely struggling with 2 group pulls or they don't feel comfortable with their job for whatever reason (being rusty, being new, just not meshing well with the playstyle).

This isn't about who is a "scrub" or who is "terrible" but rather making sure the entire group gets through the dungeon with as little death as possible.

I really don't understand why this is such a bad concept.

[SaberMaxwell]

Or..... you could compromise and do middle-ground.

Yeah, 1 group pull is a bit boring, even in my opinion.
3 Group pulls, at least as SCH, is too stressful.

So.... what's between 1 and 3?

Right, 2.

EDIT: I will also note that yesterday I had a Shisui run, and the tank there did a 3 group pull and it was rather smooth. I'm thinking that maybe either ShB dungeons are tuned a bit high, esp Holminster, or maybe the fact that being Level Sync'd makes a rather big difference in how smooth things go. Which goes back to my initial complaint: If the healer isn't Sync'd, I think a 2 group pull to start with is probably better and see how much they struggle, or if they breeze through it like it's nothing, watch for things like whether or not you notice them casting DPS spells. If you do a 2 group pull and you see very little DPS out of the healer, chances are they are struggling and 3 group pull is not a good idea.

Compromise requires communication. It requires you to ask the tank to slow down. But no, you "shouldn't have to" ask I guess.

[Maeka]

Compromise requires communication. It requires you to ask the tank to slow down. But no, you "shouldn't have to" ask I guess.

Let me ask you this, politely.

Going max pull speedrunning is on one end of the spectrum.
Pulling only 1 group at a time is on the other end of the spectrum.
Compromise is somewhere in the middle.

When you show up to a dungeon with 3 random people who you don't know, you don't know how well they are geared unless you /inspect them (who has time to do that, in every dungeon?) or ask (most people don't wanna talk or say anything).

So what is the "Default", then, if nothing is said?

Should it be one of the extremes, or something in the middle?

Common sense, at least to me, says that the middle-ground should be the default. Pull 2 groups, a healer who is not comfortable should say "could we do 1 group?" ... a healer who is good at their job and well-geared will go "you can pull 3 if you want".

Is there a problem with that?

Just curious.

[WhyAmIHere]

(2/2)

Maeka is every bit in the right to expect people to do sub optimal things to smoothen the run in the same way others can expect of Maeka to play suboptimally (no DPS for instance or clipping / triple use of OGCD) if it means saving them.

. . .No?
No one should expect ANYTHING of anyone.

Let me ask you this, politely.

Going max pull speedrunning is on one end of the spectrum.
Pulling only 1 group at a time is on the other end of the spectrum.
Compromise is somewhere in the middle.

When you show up to a dungeon with 3 random people who you don't know, you don't know how well they are geared unless you /inspect them (who has time to do that, in every dungeon?) or ask (most people don't wanna talk or say anything).

So what is the "Default", then, if nothing is said?

Should it be one of the extremes, or something in the middle?

Common sense, at least to me, says that the middle-ground should be the default. Pull 2 groups, a healer who is not comfortable should say "could we do 1 group?" ... a healer who is good at their job and well-geared will go "you can pull 3 if you want".

Is there a problem with that?

Bold/Underlined is your problem. In your opinion. Everyone else has their own opinions. And unless you speak up at all you will not learn anything.

I'll ask your opinion on how I personally pull, just to prove a point.

I don't use sprint in dungeons. I'm lazy.
I pull wall to wall unless someone says something. I'm lazy.
Where in your spectrum would that fall? Is sprinting what makes that too extreme? Is pulling wall to wall what makes that too extreme? Is me assuming the healer i get matched with to be capable of keeping up too extreme?

. . .3k character limit sucks btw.

[Patcheresu]

Common sense, at least to me, says that the middle-ground should be the default. Pull 2 groups, a healer who is not comfortable should say "could we do 1 group?" ... a healer who is good at their job and well-geared will go "you can pull 3 if you want".

Is there a problem with that?

I don't quite agree with your common sense. I've had situations where the tank asked how big the pull should be or silently did a single pull. If a healer doesn't like how the tank is performing, they should warn them they cannot comfortably move at that pace. Communication is very important.

I do not understand why you believe that my, and the rest of people you group under "common sense", default assumption is to have so little faith in my allies that they cannot handle a big pull at Level 80 in a Level 79 dungeon. And, please do not call it "speedrunning". That is quite a misnomer, as the reason for doing this is a faster clear, not some attempt at a competitive record. Simply call it by a better name "big pulls".

I'm not sure why you believe the go to strat should be big pulling but only "not so" big pulling. The difference between a 2 pull and a 3 pull is whether your healer can stop casting Malefic to fight a fire the party failed to put out before it caught the tank's flesh ablaze. You're still using lots of cooldowns, aoes, and oGCD heals, they just wont be used as efficiently perhaps.

And on the forum topic, we do have Clemency for a reason. Are you familiar with the meaning of the word? It's pardoning of ones sins. Like a healer who failed to hold up to the party's needs. Or a DPS who keeps standing in bad stuff. Or a cotank who made a mistake and is badly hurt. Clemency is accident forgiveness your PLD must think about providing, as using it directly affects their ability to fight properly (Requiescat).

[ForteNightshade]

Is there a problem with that?

Just curious.

Yes, because in the vast majority of cases, it won't be a problem regardless of the healer. I've even healed those wall-to-wall pulls myself on all three healers, and I'm by now means a good Scholar. It's entirely doable provided the tank rotates CDs properly and the DPS are AoE. Considering you had a Paladin who began with Hallowed. That tells me they're at least reasonably competent as leading with your immunity is often what tanks do to get a second or third usage.

I shouldn't have to assume a middle ground because once in a while I have a healer who can't cope. In this specific instance, it sounds more like you either had weak DPS or you weren't managing your resources well. If you're running low on stacks, use Dissipation when the first pull is dying. That way you'll have three going into the next and Eos will be off her 30s penalty. By the time you've depleted those, AF itself will be available. Soil is also not worth the cost until it gets its Regen, which I don't believe it has in Holminster. Finally, if you are tapped out completely. Use Physick.

[SaberMaxwell]

That's just it. It's DF. The default, for better or worse, is going to be different depending on who gets pulled in.

Me personally? I pull to the wall. That's my default. If the healer asks me not to, I won't. If we're genuinely having so many problems surviving big pulls, I'll query the healer about how things are going on their end. But I'm not every tank, and every tank isn't me. The important thing is opening communication, because that's the basis for compromise. Not assuming and pretending everyone will (or even should) have the same default.

[RaidingIsHard]