the dragoon is penalized

[KalinOrthos]

I can agree with most of the rest of this, but... having a longer DoT time is objectively better than having a shorter time, especially when it's being clipped and is therefore not balanced around in "on paper" calculations. It allows for greater downtime mitigation/flexibility and cleave potential.

I think it's balanced around the same circumstances as monk's Demolish or paladin's Goring Blade is calculated. As it is right now, with 100% uptime on a boss, you should be reapplying your DoT either as soon as or instants before it falls off, and it's not going out of your way to do so; it's done as a natural step in your combo. If you increase the DoT length, theorycrafters are going to end up twisting the meta in order to get in two other GCDs somewhere so that you can make use of that extra tick or two of your DoT. It's the difference between 1 second left before it falls off and 7 seconds left before it falls off. It gives a pretty good skill ceiling by giving players a marker to say "Hey, really good players will keep this DoT up as much as possible" while not being tragically punishing if it does happen to fall off, simply because you're not going to cause a wipe because Chaos Thrust missed two ticks.

[Shurrikhan]

I think it's balanced around the same circumstances as monk's Demolish or paladin's Goring Blade is calculated. As it is right now, with 100% uptime on a boss, you should be reapplying your DoT either as soon as or instants before it falls off, and it's not going out of your way to do so; it's done as a natural step in your combo. If you increase the DoT length, theorycrafters are going to end up twisting the meta in order to get in two other GCDs somewhere so that you can make use of that extra tick or two of your DoT.

If that were the case, we would have seen the same done back in HW, when up to 2 ticks would be clipped each time. And would that really be so bad, anyways, if some higher-SkS DRGs fit in an extra Full Thrust combo per CT? Would it break the job for it to optionally be more than just A B A B A B ad nauseum?

Shadow Fang similarly had intentionally excessive duration during SB so that players at typical (read, optimal) Skill Speeds could work in a limited number of clipped casts per SF in order not to clip its tick, giving them options to work around more than just "follow this rigid combo, but... harder?" Demolish has likewise always allowed for rotational deviation over different SkS breakpoints. In ARR, ToD and Fracture together allowed for perfect timing at typical Crit-high Skill Speeds. In HW, high SkS allowed for a further cycle per Demolish at slight delay or to clip it well short of completion. In SB, the same (though with less modular adjustment possible). The same can be said for Shifu and Jinpu in SB; their durations being variably excessive, eventually reaching new rotational allowances, made SkS breakpoints feel meaningful.

Each of those rotations were made more interesting for the choice provided by an "excessive" DoT duration. I don't see why what has already worked for every melee, including DRG itself in ARR and HW, would suddenly not work. Historically, it's likely to improve gameplay. At the worst, it can't hurt it -- instead merely increasing DRG relative uptime in particular fights and improving its cleave in some rare situations.

[KalinOrthos]

I dunno, you make a good argument, but I can't agree with it because it just feels like greater homogeneity in the current state of the game by making Dragoon feel a bit more like Monk and vice versa. The whole point of a Dragoon's rotation is its rigidity, which is its greatest strength and weakness. One of the biggest reasons why the DPS in this game feel so good to play compared to tank or healers (with exceptions) is because they each feel unique in their own ways. I think removing that uniqueness for the sake of greater flexibility isn't the right course of action. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, and it's not really something I want to argue.

[Nedkel]

OP wants a job that is comfy to use, but this is not a direction any game dev should have choose to follow.

Making everything easy and take thinking away from it will make game boring.
There has to be some inconvenience so you as a DRG player have something to think on instead of having everything perfectly lined up. Do you want a warrior treatment for DRG? I dont think so.

[Shurrikhan]

I dunno, you make a good argument, but I can't agree with it because it just feels like greater homogeneity in the current state of the game by making Dragoon feel a bit more like Monk and vice versa. The whole point of a Dragoon's rotation is its rigidity, which is its greatest strength and weakness. One of the biggest reasons why the DPS in this game feel so good to play compared to tank or healers (with exceptions) is because they each feel unique in their own ways. I think removing that uniqueness for the sake of greater flexibility isn't the right course of action. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, and it's not really something I want to argue.

Homogeneity? Because current Dragoon wouldn't lose out on choices Dragoon used to have?

What you're describing is a circumstance of Lance Mastery, not any long-standing part of Dragoon's identity.

ARR and HW DRG were flexible at certain SkS tiers. They weren't flexible in the way Monk was at the time, nor the way NIN was (though most nearly so), nor the way SAM would later arrive; it had its own type of flexibility. It didn't have to be reduced to zero GCD choice as it has now just to have a unique playflow.

Unique limitations without compensating choice-making around those limitations, or the gutting of player choices for gutting's sake, are rarely if ever a good way to create distinction between classes. If it came down to a choice of everyone benefiting from merely having complexity and flexibility, and isolating flexibility and complexity each to one job, or isolating one job each from either, I'd take sooner take homogeneity. And I despise homogeneity.

[Maeka]

I am no Pro dragoon by any means.

My Dragoon is only Lv72 almost 73 and I levelled it mostly through Beast Tribes and the occasional Leveling or Trials Roulette, so I am hardly a pro, BUT...

Even I can see that you have several movement skills, and dude, ShB Dragoon seems way more smooth and easier than Stormblood's did. With making that dragon meter easier to manage (it's almost impossible to have it wear off now, and even if it does wear off you can start the timer again anytime you want, as long as you did at least one skill to extend it), it's like... "what's hard about Dragoon?"

Dragoon used to be talked about like it was one of the hardest jobs in the game to play, and now it just seems... easy. The only one I have trouble with now is MNK and trying to remember which rotation to use when. Do I have Leaden Fists up right now? Do I need Twin Snakes this time? Demolish or that other attack? I keep stumbling all over those three, lol.

[Gruntler]

You all talk about buffing... Do you even play each single job at Square Enix?
The DRG, for istance, is the only melee who cannot count on the use of a off-global cd skill which allows him to fast approach the boss, such as shukichi, gyoten or tackle shoulder.
DRG has got Elusive Jump, yeah... the same skill which kills you if you make 1cm mistake in positioning.
Or maybe Spinshatter Dive, which has 1min of cd for 240 of potency. Why don’t you nerf this useless skill adding 2 stacks of use to it?
What about Chaos Thrust? 24 sec... it expires each time you need to move during DRG rotation.
On the other hand, Disembowel lasts 30 sec and it’s easier to refresh it before it expires. So why don’t you make Chaos last 30 sec, too?
Please, next time try focusing on useful adjustments, not useless ones such as Blood of Dragoon updates.

I propose the following fixes:

One: Actually use Elusive Jump on opener, it's seriously, like, you just turn your character away, while targetting the boss. It's not rocket surgery.

Two: Stop pretending Spineshatter Dive doesn't exist

Three: Stop pretending Dragonfire Dive doesn't exist.

Like, you seem to be confused. Dragoon doesn't lack gapclosers. It has the most gap-closers.

3>1

[Maeka]

I propose the following fixes:

One: Actually use Elusive Jump on opener, it's seriously, like, you just turn your character away, while targetting the boss. It's not rocket surgery.

Two: Stop pretending Spineshatter Dive doesn't exist

Three: Stop pretending Dragonfire Dive doesn't exist.

Like, you seem to be confused. Dragoon doesn't lack gapclosers. It has the most gap-closers.

3>1

Their problem is that they are trying to save Spineshatter and Dragonfire for in the middle of the rotation, they are likely trying to put Disembowel up, and also that Dragon Blood skill to maximize the DPS that the two dives do, instead of using it as an opener or gap-closer after a phase or something.

I will admit that I fell into this trap at first and then I realized that the time I spent dinking around with using Elusive Jump to open is kinda stupid because then it could be on cooldown when the boss does an AoE, and I should just use Spineshatter and be done with it. The piddly DPS increase is not worth losing several seconds of running up to the boss to start my rotation, and I get to keep my Elusive Jump ready for dodging AoEs instead. I lose a little DPS, but meh. Not enough that I'm worried.

It isn't like I'm doing Ultimate Alexander or something.

[Gruntler]

Their problem is that they are trying to save Spineshatter and Dragonfire for in the middle of the rotation, they are likely trying to put Disembowel up, and also that Dragon Blood skill to maximize the DPS that the two dives do, instead of using it as an opener or gap-closer after a phase or something.

I will admit that I fell into this trap at first and then I realized that the time I spent dinking around with using Elusive Jump to open is kinda stupid because then it could be on cooldown when the boss does an AoE, and I should just use Spineshatter and be done with it. The piddly DPS increase is not worth losing several seconds of running up to the boss to start my rotation, and I get to keep my Elusive Jump ready for dodging AoEs instead. I lose a little DPS, but meh. Not enough that I'm worried.

It isn't like I'm doing Ultimate Alexander or something.

I mean Optimal is Optimal, but complaining that DRG magically has to save its gapclosers for the burst window when the reason MNK doesn't is it -can't- due to a lack of gapclosing options, SAM can't because of how its resource works, and the only reason NIN uses its gapcloser that way is because its gapcloser does no damage so no point.... it's missing the point. DRG uses Elusive Jump because it has 3 gapclosing options. allowing them to save two of them for damage during the burst window.

[Renkei]

Ya DRG Doesn't have a Gap Closer since it Relies to Heavily on them for Damage, so it uses Elusive Jump. Which for some Strange reason doesn't buff piercing Talon for a disengage option. I'd like to see dragoons skill ceiling raised personally It'd be a lot more fun if Disembowel and Vorpal had a positional. Another thing weird is that Dragoon has to Delay their opening in order to line up with Raid buffs better, Not to Mention Clunky Dragon-Sight.

I Play Samurai too, and They can Afford to since they have a disengage that pays them back in gauge for using it. But most of Dragoon's Up time is very reliant on Elusive jump and sprinting.