Thoughts on the removal of skills

[Gemina]

Uh, Edge and Flood are off-gcd with a MP cost to reward proper MP management, as well as allow you to pool MP for party cooldowns and use it spamming Edges during buff windows without using all your GCDs. DRK gameplay would be even slower and clunkier without Edge off the GCD, and would involve zero MP management if they didn't cost MP. Unleash and Unmend are MP free because the basic AoE rotation and pulling move for all tanks is meant to be free, so as to not force tanks to go dry in the middle of a pull. The only complaint that makes any sense here is the Abyssal Drain one, and that skill probably got nerfed so DRK wouldn't have infinite HP in big pulls anymore.

Edge and Flood are MP dumps that you use so long as you have enough MP in the bank for TBN. If that's what you call "MP management" it is most braindead of the MP using classes I play. The upkeep of darkside by use of these abilities also lacks any kind of engaging challenge for the DRK. You seriously have to be asleep to let it fall. I would much rather Edge/Flood to hit even harder than they do now, and have a CD instead of an MP cost. I never said they should be on the GCD.

Using your MP wisely so you don't run dry during a pull is what I truly call MP management, and that is why I would much rather skills like Unleash, Unmend, and even Abysal Drain to cost MP and be on the GCD so you can't just spam away to your hearts content like now. That is how it used to be, and DRK was much more fun then. Hell, even the clunky Dark Passenger gave me more to think about than I have to now when I play DRK.

The Abysal Drain gripe is actually what I mind the least. The infinite HP drainage during large pulls is easily fixed by adjusting how much HP is returned. I am not saying DRK doesn't work as is. It tanks just fine, and the flow of skill execution is pretty smooth. However, it's lost a lot of its edge, which is pretty bad for a job that is defined by that. Its skillset lacks exclusivity, innovation, and the creativity that should make it feel like a DRK instead of simply just a tank.

Making a job fun isn't just about making it work. My vacuum works too, that doesn't make it fun to use.

[LalaRu]

Did play in the past well known games with only 8 buttons to use and no one did had any issue with classes "identity" nor the difficulty of the competitive play, so I hardly can find a job "identity" in danger by reducing the skillset.

And the AST card changes weren't done on a whim. Before the change, everyone crying in game they had to "fish" for the "right" cards, save to crying again today because the job have "no identity". Only issue that had to be fixed is when first skill revamp made AST, and noct sect especially, the shadow of itself and a pain to play.

[RadicalPesto]

Edge and Flood are MP dumps that you use so long as you have enough MP in the bank for TBN. If that's what you call "MP management" it is most braindead of the MP using classes I play. The upkeep of darkside by use of these abilities also lacks any kind of engaging challenge for the DRK. You seriously have to be asleep to let it fall. I would much rather Edge/Flood to hit even harder than they do now, and have a CD instead of an MP cost. I never said they should be on the GCD.

Using your MP wisely so you don't run dry during a pull is what I truly call MP management, and that is why I would much rather skills like Unleash, Unmend, and even Abysal Drain to cost MP and be on the GCD so you can't just spam away to your hearts content like now. That is how it used to be, and DRK was much more fun then. Hell, even the clunky Dark Passenger gave me more to think about than I have to now when I play DRK.

So you want to replace the basic gameplay loop of "build MP for raid buffs, make sure to not overcap, spend as much as possible during trick attack while making sure you'll still have some for tankbusters" with.... "press this button on cooldown"? that would make Dark Knight even slower and more mindless than it currently is. What you propose would remove any remaining measure of depth the class has and turn it into a more shallow version of Warrior. Managing Edge around raid buffs is simple but still more rewarding than your idea of making DRK's MP management revolve entirely around the gimmicky "press quietus to restore all MP" Stormblood AoE rotation. It's simply baffling that your complains about DRK seem aimed towards turning it into an even more homogenised, generic Warrior clone while what most DRK players want is to be differentiated from WAR.

[Sated]

As long as they leave DNC as-is I'll be happy going forward, but for me to enjoy any other job they'd need to prune more than they have.

[linay]

They removed half of the most useful skills in the game because of mythical "Button bloat" and yet many jobs, especially MCH and WAR...actually came in to 5.0 with LESS buttons to push than in SB!

The button bloat is "mythical" because they removed some abilities to not have bloat. The visible cross hotbars (including the WXHB) of many of the jobs I play (including Warrior) are full. Bard, as I've shown in an earlier post in this thread, is one that doesn't require extra hotbars. If they never remove abilities, then there would be button bloat. (I'd say some jobs are already on the line there if not crossing over to having bloat.)

Now, if you're arguing that the abilities they removed are more useful (compared to the abilities that they added), then that's a different argument.

[Satarn]

So you want to replace the basic gameplay loop of "build MP for raid buffs, make sure to not overcap, spend as much as possible during trick attack while making sure you'll still have some for tankbusters" with.... "press this button on cooldown"?

You can't overcap though, which is why MP management on DRK has been dead since 5.0.

You generate exactly enough MP per minute to use Edge/Flood 4 times and you are meant to use all 4 in a row once per minute, as that lines up with any raid buff that affects its damage.
You can only hold enough MP for 3 Edges at a time, but you also get a Dark Arts stack to hold exactly the one extra Edge/Flood that you'd have to use early otherwise, so you just use TBN once per minute and you're golden. If you'd like to use it more than that, it will usually cost you dps by misaligning one Edge from raid buffs, further decreasing flexibility.

In order to actually have any real MP management, DRK would need more MP generation to overcap and some actual choice in what to spend it on, as the way it stands now, all your MP goes to either "single target Edge" or "AoE Edge" including the MP that's "spent" on TBN. You're not actually "saving MP for TBN" - you're just spending the MP you wouldn't be able to hold for raid buffs otherwise on it - it is pre "saved" for you by design.

Just like Darkside, which basically can not be dropped, SHB MP mechanics are merely an illusion of resource management.

[VenKitsune]

The button bloat is "mythical" because they removed some abilities to not have bloat. The visible cross hotbars (including the WXHB) of many of the jobs I play (including Warrior) are full. Bard, as I've shown in an earlier post in this thread, is one that doesn't require extra hotbars. If they never remove abilities, then there would be button bloat. (I'd say some jobs are already on the line there if not crossing over to having bloat.)

Now, if you're arguing that the abilities they removed are more useful (compared to the abilities that they added), then that's a different argument.

Thats what im saying though....
There is no way at all, even on controller, that you're going to run out of buttons any time soon. Button bloat IS mythical, because it doesnt exist. All it would take is for people to re-organise their hotbars...and in the first month of an expansion people dont play all that amazing because they're still learning how their job plays in that expansion...so its not like an extra hotbar or an extra set of hotkeys, learning them, is going to make anyone any worse. Button bloat is a myth, and thats simply the truth of it. Look at other MMOs...look at how many skills they have, and you'll see what i mean. And again, on controller, there are several off by default options to extend its use for more buttons, all it would take is a week or twos adjustment period for people in new expansions, which they already go through anyway.

HW added new skills - People didnt complain about button bloat then, even though it was still an addition over what had been the norm in the game for a full 2 years. People adapt quickly.

[Shurrikhan]

Did play in the past well known games with only 8 buttons to use and no one did had any issue with classes "identity" nor the difficulty of the competitive play, so I hardly can find a job "identity" in danger by reducing the skillset.

That all depends on how those skills are assembled. More than an issue of "identity", it's an issue as to whether the developers know how to design the skills efficiently enough make a compelling kit out of so few buttons. The kit that is functional, satisfying, and cohesive around distinct aesthetics, capacities, and gameplay will have also created a toolkit capable of great "identity".

That certainly hasn't been the case for XIV, however. With how inefficiently our skills are crafted and mapped into our available button-presses, and how often the distinct skills are removed rather than the barebone template ones, every skill often matters to identity and every loss has a high chance to hurt it.

[linay]

Thats what im saying though....
There is no way at all, even on controller, that you're going to run out of buttons any time soon. Button bloat IS mythical, because it doesnt exist. All it would take is for people to re-organise their hotbars...and in the first month of an expansion people dont play all that amazing because they're still learning how their job plays in that expansion...so its not like an extra hotbar or an extra set of hotkeys, learning them, is going to make anyone any worse. Button bloat is a myth, and thats simply the truth of it. Look at other MMOs...look at how many skills they have, and you'll see what i mean. And again, on controller, there are several off by default options to extend its use for more buttons, all it would take is a week or twos adjustment period for people in new expansions, which they already go through anyway.

HW added new skills - People didnt complain about button bloat then, even though it was still an addition over what had been the norm in the game for a full 2 years. People adapt quickly.

Considering I picked some of the jobs I play based on the number of abilities, I do think bloat is a possible concern.

Some of the MMOs I've tried are WoW (Legion/BfA), SWTOR, STO, ESO, Tera, BDO, DCUO, (some Marvel MMO), AoC, Rift, and some other I've forgotten, and honestly, none of their controls are as nice as FFXIV for me. The only two I've played at max level are WoW and SWTOR and they have comparable number of abilities to FFXIV, and maybe even less in actual combat for certain classes for day-to-day dungeon playthrough.

[File2ish]

Skills need to be merged/removed with each level cap increase to avoid eventual skill bloat, which in turn may change functions of some jobs. Can't really be avoided, sadly. Though I personally wouldn't mind having my expansive spell list from FFXI on RDM again :P

As long as they don't gut job systems again like what happened to AST, it'll probably be fine...

I miss my different cards. If we can't get them back, can we get different effects for Solar/Celestial/Lunar seals at least? Please?