Advice...

[Silverquick]

You implied directly with "RDM is stronger in single target"
Its not.

Implied? Seriously?
You took it personally..... as if I was somehow making some kind of personal attack on Summoner, as if it was weak or something, when I said nothing of the sort?

The problem then is yours... not mine.

So far even Karshan has stated that the power boost in Summoner is specifically at 80th level. I did not dispute that.... but said I would look into it again at that level.
I said... I do not see that currently at 77th level as I had both jobs and playing them simultaneously through the MSQ with the same gear, and at present RDM is stronger in Single Target damage.

You just directly stated it was... 7% average at 80th level. Do you realize how slim of a margin 7% is? That means even ONE DoT dropping for a few seconds or missing one spell... and RDM will come out ahead.

You turned this into something personal when it was anything but that.

[Karshan]

Implied? Seriously?
You took it personally..... as if I was somehow making some kind of personal attack on Summoner, as if it was weak or something, when I said nothing of the sort?

The problem then is yours... not mine.

So far even Karshan has stated that the power boost in Summoner is specifically at 80th level. I did not dispute that.... but said I would look into it again at that level.
I said... I do not see that currently at 77th level as I had both jobs and playing them simultaneously through the MSQ with the same gear, and at present RDM is stronger in Single Target damage.

You just directly stated it was... 7% average at 80th level. Do you realize how slim of a margin 7% is? That means even ONE DoT dropping for a few seconds or missing one spell... and RDM will come out ahead.

You turned this into something personal when it was anything but that.

- "at present RDM is stronger in Single Target damage" : no, it is not. I do not know about AOE because I don't have the numbers, but from 70 to 80 ST summoner is absolutely stronger than ST red mage. That's not opinion you know, I really don't care (I raid as a RDM, have no favorites), it really just is about the fact there are measurements in the form of tools that must not be named (act and fflogs, oops) ?
- "how slim of a margin 7% is" : 7% is not a small margin in a MMO, and this one is no different. You spend weeks to improve a few pourcents power through gear. Again 7% might be droplet in a muso, but not in a MMO.
- "means even ONE DoT dropping for a few seconds or missing one spell" : such small mistakes don't do a 7% difference on your DPS. You'd have to be dropping dozens of GCDs or dozens of seconds of DOTs

Ok I guess nice time is over : you're presenting an opinion and stating it as fact by not using conditional or cautious wording. It's actually you who's taking it personally because you merged your opinion with data. The data is wrong we're correcting it, but since you associated it with your opinion you're having a hard time backing down.

I'm not asking "sorry I was wrong" kinda post, don't care, just stop saying single target RDM is stronger when it is not that's all I ask.

[Seabhacgra]

So while I like the theoretical debates and chats .. back to the subject of my original posting.. I have fun with BOTH RDM and Machinist.. BOTH do comparable damage... and I have BOTH geared at 460+... so given all is the same.. which would you rather see with your group in a dungeon or raid and why? thanks!

[Akiudo]

So while I like the theoretical debates and chats .. back to the subject of my original posting.. I have fun with BOTH RDM and Machinist.. BOTH do comparable damage... and I have BOTH geared at 460+... so given all is the same.. which would you rather see with your group in a dungeon or raid and why? thanks!

considering you're asking i assume "fun" isn't a factor here, as in both are fun to you before someone quotes me to tell me i should let people play what makes them happy, so with that being said

dungeon ? whatever. things die too fast and are to easy in general, maybe giving it slightly to redmage here as that one could get up the healer if something goes awry, but realistically its dungeon content and way too easy with ilvl 460+ anyways.

raid ? mch as most groups will want to get the 1% buff (even though mathematically you would deal around the same group dps taking an equal smn/blm combo compared to 1 caster+mch) and mch at least can say its the strongest physical ranged, whereas redmage is dead last as far as casters are concerned, your group will simply have 1000+ dps more if you play mch and you take a blm/smn with you compared to a situation where you play redmage and the only ranged you can find is a bard (or to lesser extent dancer)

[Zerathor]

So while I like the theoretical debates and chats .. back to the subject of my original posting.. I have fun with BOTH RDM and Machinist.. BOTH do comparable damage... and I have BOTH geared at 460+... so given all is the same.. which would you rather see with your group in a dungeon or raid and why? thanks!

Depends on group comp. But probably rdm. Rez mage makes a nice safety net in general. That shouldn't be something to rely on in a static group much, but if you're running pf with randos, or in df, rdm can hard carry with revives. There's a lot of stupid people out there.

If you're looking for a static group, I'd go with what they dont have to get the buff. No caster? Go rdm. No range? Go mch. They have both? Then whichever you most prefer really. You'd likely get better consistency with mch in harder fights.

[Seabhacgra]

considering you're asking i assume "fun" isn't a factor here, as in both are fun to you before someone quotes me to tell me i should let people play what makes them happy, so with that being said

dungeon ? whatever. things die too fast and are to easy in general, maybe giving it slightly to redmage here as that one could get up the healer if something goes awry, but realistically its dungeon content and way too easy with ilvl 460+ anyways.

raid ? mch as most groups will want to get the 1% buff (even though mathematically you would deal around the same group dps taking an equal smn/blm combo compared to 1 caster+mch) and mch at least can say its the strongest physical ranged, whereas redmage is dead last as far as casters are concerned, your group will simply have 1000+ dps more if you play mch and you take a blm/smn with you compared to a situation where you play redmage and the only ranged you can find is a bard (or to lesser extent dancer)

What 1% are you talking about? Machinist has -no- group buffs, Tactician only has a temp 10% damage reduction for 15 seconds like the Bard Troubador or Dancer Shield Samba. MCH only brings DPS, no buffs of any sort.

[Akiudo]

What 1% are you talking about? Machinist has -no- group buffs, Tactician only has a temp 10% damage reduction for 15 seconds like the Bard Troubador or Dancer Shield Samba. MCH only brings DPS, no buffs of any sort.

the 1% mainstat buff you get for taking any physical ranged at all, which literally is the only reason to take any of them right now

[Seabhacgra]

the 1% mainstat buff you get for taking any physical ranged at all, which literally is the only reason to take any of them right now

LOL I had no idea they did that,.. wow.. such good arguments for both.. RDM - safety net for rez, MCH - 1% and more consistent dps is what it sounds like it basically oils down to..

[Akiudo]

LOL I had no idea they did that,.. wow.. such good arguments for both.. RDM - safety net for rez, MCH - 1% and more consistent dps is what it sounds like it basically oils down to..

you get a 1 mainstat buff for every role that is filled, so 1% for tanks, 1% for healer, 1% for melee and 1% for both casters and physical ranged classes totaling 5% (though obviously its impossible in a full group to have less than 3% buffs as you will need to have some kind of dps aswell as a tank and a healer)

the problem right now is that the physical ranged as a whole are a very weak role, and no matter how often people may argue that "no ones gonna replace the physical ranged" or whatever, mathematically you would basically have the same group dps or even slightly more if you take a smn or blackmage as second ranged instead of a physical ranged, there is however the matter of 1% extra vitality, the best or at least most universal damage reduction skill aswell as the fact that even with the changed raid dps metric on the site that shall not be named not having a physical ranged at all would actually show up there as you doing less damage, so even though damage wise it makes nearly zero difference if you grab smn+blackmage or smn/blm+a physical ranged it would leave you with slightly less hp, a somewhat worse damage reduction (de)buff aswell as making you look 1%~ dps worse when looking at damage rankings which is why generally a group will want exactly 1 physical ranged. redmage in itself is a totally fine class, it just gets totally eclipsed by summoner dealing a lot more damage while still offering the rez.

sadly (balance wise) this means if you talk raids than playing mch fills up the designated physical ranged slot (cant call it anything else at this point) with the strongest possible out of 3 classes. playing redmage on the other hand gives you the weakest out of 3 different classes (the casters), if it where just redmage+blackmage competing one could make an argument for the rez the redmage offers, but as summoner offers a rezz aswell this greatly dimishes the value of redmages rezz will completly falling behind both smn and blm damage wise

[Seabhacgra]

LOL sounds like basically, play for fun not for DPS and if you want to make an impact as DPS, don't play either one,.. go play Black Mage, Summoner or ANY melee dps, and I'm leary of summoner because it's WAY overtuned and overpowered for having rez and heals and is likely to get nerfed or at least needs a good pummeling with a nerf bat..and I'm just not even vaguely interested in any sort of melee DPS...

As a side note.. I'm sincerely saddened by the imbalance in DPS this expansion.. I wonder what they been smoking at SE lately..