Advice...

[Karshan]

Well I really wouldn't be, I actually, in pure DPS outdamage my SMN in pure Single Target damage. With an RDM you are literally talking 620 potency damage per normal Dual Cast.

The reason that doesn't hold in actual game is that much like with BLM... training dummy meets reality...

I may be able to do a ton of damage with RDM, but in actual Instance play... my SMN comes out on top, because while me and the BLM, RDM are running around dodging mechanics going "Oh crap, Oh crap, O Crap!!"... My SMN still has a good 200 potency worth of DOTs (+ pet) ticking away all the while... and can give pet commands for Egi Assaults resulting in Ruin IVs all on the move.

Not to be mean, but maybe you're not playing well your summoner in the first place. On a dummy SMN is easily doing 1k more if played well...

Uptime is a non issue at high level, every class manages 99% uptime. However what you describe is indeed of prime importance for someone who just wants to play casually though.

So to the author I think the answer is rather there : if you play casually, pick a class that allows you easy uptime and will less affect your DPS. In a 100% uptime situation, MCH and RDM currently have similar DPS (resp. 14k5 and 14k7, yes rdm is a bit better), but if you can't manage 100% uptime and for instance have to break casts etc, you'll feel weaker as a RDM.

I do agree that mch is almost a selfish DPS (way more than bard and dancer at least) and as such feels underwhelming. Not asking for blm/sam levels but a bit closer to 15k2 would be appreciated.

I find it comfier (and for the team as well) to prog as RDM though, his flow being quite laid back allowing you to focus more on mechanics, while MCH has wildfire and overheat to watch.
Although when raiding with another group with no RDM I didn't find it as needed as I thought, there are still evenings where we could have spared a lot of time (wiping where we wouldn't have with a rdm).

[Silverquick]

Not to be mean, but maybe you're not playing well your summoner in the first place.

I hardly think its me.

Any Summoner is going to be hard pressed to keep up 630+ average potency of single target attacks unless they're playing absolutely perfect with no DoTs falling off and always hitting every trance in perfect timing.

That said at present I'm only 77th on both Jobs SMN/RDM as I go through Shadowbringers and do not have Phoenix Enkindle yet, but I don't think its going to make much difference.

[Karshan]

I hardly think its me.

Any Summoner is going to be hard pressed to keep up 630+ average potency of single target attacks unless they're playing absolutely perfect with no DoTs falling off and always hitting every trance in perfect timing.

That said at present I'm only 77th on both Jobs SMN/RDM as I go through Shadowbringers and do not have Phoenix Enkindle yet, but I don't think its going to make much difference.

630 on 2 GCD (5 seconds), so just 126 pps on that GCD "basic" spam. The fact the second spell goes instant just means it goes off at the beginning of the 2.5 seconds, not that it doesn't trigger the 2.5 seconds before launching anything else.

In the same time span of 5 seconds, also with the "basic" stuff a smn does :
- 2x200 GCD (ruin 3) = 400
- 5/6 of 2 ticks of both dots so 0.8*2*(50 + 50) = 160
- 5/6 of 2 pet autos so 0.8*2*(80*0.8) = 102

662 in total. So absolute basic spam for both does the same approximately.

If you want to know on a more global basis, RDM global pps, counting everything from melee to oGCD is around 205 while SMN is 220 (while both correctly executed). You cannot fall behind RDM as a SMN is both are executed well.

EDIT : because it's important ; I failed to pay attention to your last sentence : it is completely false. Like it was in Stormblood, SMN gains a massive bump in potency come the last level.
Indeed, between 72 and 79 it goes like that : Baha trance > Bahamut > Phoenix Trance w/o Phoenix > Repeat.
At 80, you add 5 second to the Phoenix Trance and, well, Phoenix, which is a Baha like.
It would be close from one another if during 72 -> 79, Phoenix trance allowed you to summon Bahamut after it, but it's absolutely not the case. So Phoenix is a complete gain at 80, twice the Demis in the same timespan. More gain than Scorch.

[Silverquick]

EDIT : because it's important ; I failed to pay attention to your last sentence : it is completely false. Like it was in Stormblood, SMN gains a massive bump in potency come the last level.
Indeed, between 72 and 79 it goes like that : Baha trance > Bahamut > Phoenix Trance w/o Phoenix > Repeat.
At 80, you add 5 second to the Phoenix Trance and, well, Phoenix, which is a Baha like.
It would be close from one another if during 72 -> 79, Phoenix trance allowed you to summon Bahamut after it, but it's absolutely not the case. So Phoenix is a complete gain at 80, twice the Demis in the same timespan. More gain than Scorch.

Fair enough,

I will check into it again once I get to 80th in both.
But as of 77th in both in equal gear, my single target damage is indeed higher for RDM.

EDIT: Oh by the way...

In the same time span of 5 seconds, also with the "basic" stuff a smn does :
- 2x200 GCD (ruin 3) = 400
- 5/6 of 2 ticks of both dots so 0.8*2*(50 + 50) = 160
- 5/6 of 2 pet autos so 0.8*2*(80*0.8) = 102

662 in total. So absolute basic spam for both does the same approximately.

I see why you made the mistake though... Your math is actually wrong here.

You forgot to include Ruin 3's recast timer in your calculation... the casting time is 2.5 seconds... and its recast is 2.5 seconds, so its 5 seconds total for the cast. You're in the same boat as RDM there.

You've only got One Ruin 3 in that time, not two... so you have to remove one of your Ruin 3s.

So you're only at 462 total not 662.

[Kalker]

Fair enough,
EDIT: Oh by the way...


I see why you made the mistake though... Your math is actually wrong here.

You forgot to include Ruin 3's recast timer in your calculation... the casting time is 2.5 seconds... and its recast is 2.5 seconds, so its 5 seconds total for the cast. You're in the same boat as RDM there.

You've only got One Ruin 3 in that time, not two... so you have to remove one of your Ruin 3s.

So you're only at 462 total not 662.

Sorry but that's absolutely not how cast and recast work at all.
The recast timer doesn't start ticking after you cast, they both start ticking at the same time.

Check this video for example, their cast bar is in the top of the screen. You do not spend 2.5 seconds casting Ruin III, wait 2.5 for the recast and then another 2.5 casting Ruin III. You just cast them back to back.

[Vendalwind]

Fair enough,

I will check into it again once I get to 80th in both.
But as of 77th in both in equal gear, my single target damage is indeed higher for RDM.

EDIT: Oh by the way...


I see why you made the mistake though... Your math is actually wrong here.

You forgot to include Ruin 3's recast timer in your calculation... the casting time is 2.5 seconds... and its recast is 2.5 seconds, so its 5 seconds total for the cast. You're in the same boat as RDM there.

You've only got One Ruin 3 in that time, not two... so you have to remove one of your Ruin 3s.

So you're only at 462 total not 662.

Yeah thats definately not how it works.... SMN is easily the strongest job in the game right now too at 80 just abtw....

[Silverquick]

Yeah thats definately not how it works.... SMN is easily the strongest job in the game right now too at 80 just abtw....

Well I don't see that at this level.

Right now, SMN is stronger on AoE, RDM stronger on Single Target. Both are still good at the reverse though.

RDM has Vercures, SMN has Stoneskin from the pet. So when I'm doing The Ivalice or Omega Raids, one can shield from pet to avoid damage, the other cures himself after being damaged so the survival rate is pretty similar.

It just comes down to which one I need for which situation.

[Karshan]

Well I don't see that at this level.

Right now, SMN is stronger on AoE, RDM stronger on Single Target. Both are still good at the reverse though.

RDM has Vercures, SMN has Stoneskin from the pet. So when I'm doing The Ivalice or Omega Raids, one can shield from pet to avoid damage, the other cures himself after being damaged so the survival rate is pretty similar.

It just comes down to which one I need for which situation.

But it does. Mathematically, it does. You're just less proficient with your SMN than your RDM, that's what we're telling you from page 1. From 70 (just checked 5.1 figures in 70 content) to 80 SMN is supposed to be stronger.

You're doing less damage, and don't even consider you're just less proficient with your SMN than your RDM and go straight for "SMN is weaker" generality when it absolutely isn't. I'm not attacking you personnally but it is to stop the spreading of false information.