Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[3ureka]

At the risk of whining, I'm just deeply saddened that the class that got me through the majority of my FFXIV experience feels so lackluster (if not bad) to play. I'm having much more fun with basically all of the other classes (NIN and SAM in particular). I was outright angry with MNK on SB's release, and now I think I'm at the acceptance - albeit disappointed - stage. :/

[Shurrikhan]

Mnk has... Crit Boot synergy with Chakra generation very little synergy with anything else in its kit and it's sad when looking at other jobs.

There's a fine line between "synergy" and "crippled if CDs are desynced". Synergy is like Internal Release increasing the relative value of a double-Bootshine rotational string back in SB or decreasing it in HW to a certain breakpoint, adjusting your optimal choices but not to a point that one need be held for the other. Synergy is 6SS finally being usable, if only at the end of a damage CD's duration and when mindful of sync elsewhere (that is, if MNK still had some way of adjusting its sync, which it hasn't since 6SS's release with ShB). Synergy is being able to use TK when able to quickly generate it back, though at cost to another rotational possibility and not so strong (such as due to, say, a bug making its damage 39%-45% higher than stated) as to be obligatory. Anything past that is simply costing two buttons for a single combined action, dependence more so than synergy.

Yes, Monk lacks synergy. But let's be careful not to fall back on such bottom-of-the-barrel examples as the "synergy" of DWaD and Assassinate, for example, when we try to fill that lack. Assassinate is literal bloat. It could merely be apm bloat, par for NIN's former high-speed identity, and that'd be fine so long as there's nothing that other double-weave that would be obligatory in that same GCD (and at present, there isn't, so by all means). Using two buttons, however, just to effectively DWaD twice is hardly design worth imitating.

Right now, Monk has a few too many underpowered tools in much the same vein as pre-buff Meisui (a button previously devoted entirely to a potential mistake -- if someone forgot to instead use Fuma-Katon-Doton instead of a Fuma-Raiton-Suiton when TA is already on cooldown and the effect will not cover all 3 hits), but it's had far closer misses much more worth imitating just within its last two expansions than it'd see from, say, 5.1 NIN. It needs synergies, not bloat, not over-dependence, not skills used just to unlock another skill, and certainly doesn't need its apm crippled. It can afford to be a bit esoteric, a bit eclectic; it need only be synergetic, sensible in the context of its own skills, and fun.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Snip

Maybe DWAD isn't a good example as I somewhat agree. But that's an example that can be replicated across multiple DPS jobs which MNK simply falls behind on. Jump proccing mirage dive comes to mind. What I mean is NIN's main thing it has going is Ninki and Ninjutsu and huton to a much lesser extent. There is much more synergy within NINs core identity than there is in MNKs.

I'm mostly talking in regards to MNKs core mechanics, Greased Lightning, Chakras and positionals. There is very little within MNKs kit which actually engages with these mechanics. Positionals have no reward aside from increased potency and crit on Bootshine which synergizes with deep meditation. That's one WS out of 6 which has meaning to MNKs gauge and it's RNG dependent. TK is a trap and can be a gain or a loss depending on downtime length and anatman ticks when optimizing. So, it has a very underwhelming synergy with GL, the rest of the GL skills, RoE (which has a niche to hit 6 opo-opo hits under PB), Anatman, 6SS, Form Shift, PB (if that can even be counted anymore outside of the opener) have almost no interaction with GL other than to maintain it. Why bother even having 6SS increase GL length still after the QoL MNK got? Lastly we have Chakras, they are an all or nothing deal. They are only useful if you have all 5 anything less than 5 is completely useless. They are RNG on top of RNG to obtain and only Brotherhood can help you get more.

To sum up: MNK has next to no synergy with its 3 core mechanics. One positional is leagues ahead of all others, TK is too niche to make much impact on the GL mechanic, Chakras are RNG, have an all or nothing deal and BH punishes the MNK for double caster comp.

NIN on the other hand: Ninki doesn't need to be capped to be used. Bunshin actively helps build ninki further whilst doing more damage. TCJ > Meisui interacts with ninki, Kassatsu boosting and giving one charge of mudras is nice interaction with the Ninjutsu mechanics, ninjutsu resetting shukuchi is nice for gap closing a few times. NIN genuinely synergizes well within its own kit with MOST of its abilities. Again, I agree DWAD > Assassinate is button bloaty and doesn't interact with the job gauges whatsoever.

I would like to see more interaction/synergy with MNKs core rotations and gauges.
Chakras increased to 7 to allow an overflow would be nice or give TFC the pitch perfect treatment so that it can be expended prior to 5 chakras albeit at less potency. But their is always incentive for Max stacks when necessary. This would help MNK going into downtime with chakra stacks unnecessarily allowing them to build them back and not feeling like you've 'wasted' a TFC because you crit your last hit before the boss left and ended up with 4 or 5 chakras.

I would move chakras off of crit RNG and scatter them throughout landing positionals so that there is some synergy between positionals and chakra building. These are just ideas off the top of my head but you get the jist. I agree MNK doesn't need unneccesary buttons and the eclectic moveset could work, but there needs to be more to MNK than just double true per twin and hope for Chakras in the meantime? And please stick Leaden fist on the gaue icon... Searching for that icon during buff intensive moments is a nightmare.

To clarify: I don't want MNK to become NIN. I want it to have its own identity and be more engaging with its resources so that it actually feels like its evolving as a job.

[Shurrikhan]

Maybe DWAD isn't a good example as I somewhat agree. But that's an example that can be replicated across multiple DPS jobs which MNK simply falls behind on. Jump proccing mirage dive comes to mind.

...Isn't that just a significantly better version of Assassinate, if only due to having 50% more activation duration, to make it more flexible, and having StarDiver running off a similar bank-and-use-at-the-opportune-moment theme? You use a button to unlock another skill when you could have as easily combined the buttons, since the first will never be usable within 15 seconds of the second falling out of usability.

What I mean is NIN's main thing it has going is Ninki and Ninjutsu and huton to a much lesser extent. There is much more synergy within NINs core identity than there is in MNKs.

I agree that one thing NIN has always done right is to play off its former tools.

Raiton his hard? Well how about auto-critting it? Normally waste the initial mudras to cast a complex one?
Well how about comboing them into each other for a single-dual-tri Ninjutsu chain?
Aeolian hits like a truck compared to other skills (obviously no longer the case)? How about a second one for free?
Sacrificing a (usually too early, on-cooldown, or currently in use) TA window for another burst skill (to slip into that TA's bonus damage)? Why not?

That's... pretty decent design, to say the least, and they pushed similar enough ideas in optimization (macrorotation, mostly, insofar as sync, margins, and more immediate setup), and until recently doubled down on a particular style (oGCD-filled, high apm, and precise more than spammy). That makes a compelling design.

(Personally, I preferred when those came with weaknesses as well, such as Kassatsu resetting the Ninjutsu cooldown rather than adding an additional charge, but I'm probably alone in that.)

Now, I agree with each of your complaints on Monk. Again, I'm not arguing that Monk is good, only that really strong synergies, like... Leaden Fist... can as easily go wrong as right, so we should be careful of chasing a buzzword over than its resultant gameplay.

I've written a few "How I would do Monk" threads over the years, but for now the short of it is...

• Return Crits to a flat 50% damage bonus, but have excess chances increase effectiveness instead. For instance, a 120% crit chance (e.g. a Bootshine with a native 20% crit chance) would have a 60% bonus damage modifier (50% *120% = 60%).
• Increase the relative value of positionals (this would be for all melee though, as 40 potency for Monk is already almost 60 potency for everyone else), but return position-less skills (similar to Fracture and ToD back in the day, but with less of a maintenance aspect while maintaining wastefulness if used too often. OR revamp the form-cycle system entirely to something truly unique.
• Reduce the total value of DK-Leaden Fist over double Bootshine, apart from wanting to maximize its output in damage windows, to amount to about a positional bonus. It's therefore a worthwhile optimization around damage buffs, but a soft optimization that can be flexed or sacrificed to prep a TFC earlier. OR change DK completely.
• Remove GL4 as a mere increased-delay/increased-punishment mechanic. It will be replaced with funner things that offer more agency.
• Merge Chakra into GL, which is now a system similar to HW's expendable BotD, but still tiered. GL is still ranked up instantly by Coeurl up to GL3, but its timer can also be extended by any and all relative potency dealt. You can then spend excess timer to accelerate your oGCDs (use them before they're refreshed). This means that you can build up a bank large enough to use TK at the start of burst CDs, get a bunch back from the TK itself to bounce back to GL2 or even lose no GL depending on how much excess timer you have, go hog over the buff's duration, finish with another TK that will bounce you back to GL1 on its own, and the PB right back to GL3.
• Fixed ("Fists of") stances are gone. Instead, you generate elemental... essence, or whatever you want to call it, from your oGCDs. Those elemental effects are now... quite significant. Steel Peak, Wind Step (a renamed Shoulder Tackle), and Red Lotus added while TFC, Howling Fist, and Elixir Field become essence-dynamic. These offer significant combo opportunities between themselves and in interaction with your rotation (especially via Fire's DoT mechanic, which allows for banking and Wind's Haste mechanic) or the fight occurring around you (from which Earth can absorb raw potency to be used in your own strikes). Fill-and-spend-and-fill-and-spend play gone, replaced by choices and synergistic flow. Internal Release returned and now plays into these essences, effectively replacing Riddle of Fire, Riddle of Earth, and Riddle of Wind in a more dynamic way that integrates better with the setup from your elemental skills. (Keep in mind these are simply called Adamantine, Gale, and Red Lotus stance in Japanese, so they shouldn't be going so far as being tangibly elemental, only reminiscent in style.)
• In summary: Clunk = bad. Excessive ramp-up = bad. Gimmicks = bad. Unusable skills = bad. Modular control = good. Positional control and setup = good. oGCD choice and flow = good. Macrorotation that doesn't revolve around just one ability = good. Seems fair?

[MerlinCross]

...Isn't that just a significantly better version of Assassinate, if only due to having 50% more activation duration, to make it more flexible, and having StarDiver running off a similar bank-and-use-at-the-opportune-moment theme? You use a button to unlock another second.

There's also the fact Mirage Dive feeds into Dragoon's Job Gauge where as Assassinate does.... jack all. I know this is a MNK topic but out of all the things to not get axed on Ninja is Assassinate, really? I don't think it's been relevant to our kit/lore at all so why keep it around?

On Topic, from the outside looking in and a couple attempts to play the Job, it does feel the most weird/different of the Jobs to me. Something's off about it but I can't bring myself to get it to higher levels to even figure out what I find off about it.

[Shurrikhan]

There's also the fact Mirage Dive feeds into Dragoon's Job Gauge where as Assassinate does.... jack all. I know this is a MNK topic but out of all the things to not get axed on Ninja is Assassinate, really? I don't think it's been relevant to our kit/lore at all so why keep it around?

I mean, I'd like to keep what little apm remains, so I'd most want it to just be either (1) retooled to again be usable against low-HP enemies, and preferably generate some Ninki, while being unlocked against an enemy regardless of HP for a free charge after DWaD or (2) hotswap into DWaD's place for its 10 seconds' activation time after the prior has been used. Removal wouldn't be a noticeable blow after the blunt force trauma of the unnecessary slow-downs, though.

[MerlinCross]

I mean, I'd like to keep what little apm remains, so I'd most want it to just be either (1) retooled to again be usable against low-HP enemies, and preferably generate some Ninki, while being unlocked against an enemy regardless of HP for a free charge after DWaD or (2) hotswap into DWaD's place for its 10 seconds' activation time after the prior has been used. Removal wouldn't be a noticeable blow after the blunt force trauma of the unnecessary slow-downs, though.

There's keeping it because it's effective and fun and keeping it because "Well we need to push a button here or else it feels slow". Like if it did more than just damage maybe it wouldn't feel so empty and wasted of a slot(Cough, Assassinate is Jugulate locked behind another timer).

Oddly I think MNK kinda has that same problem of wanting to hold onto things as is without trying to future proof/work with new parts. But again, my experience and info is second hand but it just sounds weird all they've tried to keep for MNK.

[Malmstrom]

I would move chakras off of crit RNG and scatter them throughout landing positionals so that there is some synergy between positionals and chakra building.

I actually really like that idea.

I was leaning more towards 100% chakra generation on crit instead. There would still be an element of RNG, but at least not double.

Both, I think, would require a potency nerf to the spenders, but being able to have it more often to weave into your attacks would make it feel a lot better.

[3ureka]

I've only mainly leveled up physical dps classes, but are there any jobs that have a similar "double rng" gate?

[SpeckledBurd]

I've only mainly leveled up physical dps classes, but are there any jobs that have a similar "double rng" gate?

Currently no, previously Bard had a chance to proc it's Repertoire stacks off of its dots Critting. They removed it because it made Bard synergize too heavily with Dragoon and Scholar.

Monk didn't get the same treatment when it came to being overly dependent on party comp through that (And Brotherhood for physical comps) because of course it didn't.

I actually really like that idea.

I was leaning more towards 100% chakra generation on crit instead. There would still be an element of RNG, but at least not double.

Both, I think, would require a potency nerf to the spenders, but being able to have it more often to weave into your attacks would make it feel a lot better.

The problem with any degree of RNG on Chakra is that it inherently works against Meditate's ability to act to mitigate down time loss. Considering Meditate is technically Monk's ranged skill at the moment, thats a problem. If we have no control over the rate at which we build Chakra, it's possible and likely that we will disengage from the boss and be unable to make the most of time spent away because we have Chakra already banked.