Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[reyre]

Out of curiosity, a quick question for anyone/everyone:

What are some forms you wouldn't mind a reworked Greased Lightning taking? Moreover, what gameplay loops and general feel must it still accomplish?

(Same question for other resources like Forms, Stances, and Chakra, if you find those similarly pertinent.)

Thing is i actually like current MNK, let me be specific. I like the core of the class, doing positionals, having a priority system in the combo (having the option of a branching combo even if it is A or B path), building up to somenthing meaningful i.e GL.

That makes the class actually fun for me, it keeps you on your toes unlike NIN or DRG hell even SAM and their very static, boring rotations, that provide almost no enjoyment or skill celing (FOR ME!!) so after a week playing those classes i just cant care enough. (Perhaps i am a bit salty because of SAM taking the place of the selfish DPS after yoshi said that making a selfish DPS was very hard)

Unlike sqwall, (or what it seems that his point is leading to) i dont want MNK to play like any of those 3 melee in an attempt to make it "flow" it will kill the game for me honestly. (And it would seem that sqwall likes the aesthetics of MNK not the gameplay at is core. Like liking BLM for the cool explosions and then saying he hates the shifting from umbral to astral or the 15 sec timer as an example. But i digress)

However it would be disingenuous to say that the class is okay. Its pretty far from it. I would like postionals to feel meaningful, not just "LOL if its not leadenfist who cares if i miss it". That alone would provide a high skill celing. Remove stances. To this date SE has not figured a way to do stances properly in this game, just make them a trait.

Kill Brotherhood, this is the single most cancerous skill for MNK. It forces MNK into very specific party compositions and it affects the rotation not based on the player actions but based on OTHER PLAYERS RNG (What the hell SE?). Allow for chakra control and overflow, this is highly linked to the previous one.

Make SsS/TK part of the rotation, how? I have no clue. Could be like xenoglosy? Could be like sharpfang? Who knows, i do know however that the current iteration of SsS and TK is pointless. Put more oGCDs.

Outside of that (and only because i have high ping) make PB be 11 seconds, that simple change would almost certantly kill 90% of high ping complains. (I mean if the gameplay remains somewhat similar to what it is now. If it changes this is a absurd request)

GL never bothered me and i am kind of surprised that people have so many issues keeping it up or are so annoyed because button spamming, but hey you do you guys.

If i have to say, i would love if the fast paced combat remained, i love that about MNK and the flexibility it has with is forms/combo system.

PS. Bring back ToD and Howling fist.... Oh! and remove Enlightment from chakra.

[Sqwall]

Unlike sqwall, (or what it seems that his point is leading to) i dont want MNK to play like any of those 3 melee in an attempt to make it "flow" it will kill the game for me honestly. (And it would seem that sqwall likes the aesthetics of MNK not the gameplay at is core. Like liking BLM for the cool explosions and then saying he hates the shifting from umbral to astral or the 15 sec timer as an example. But i digress)

Not really the case with me. I have mentioned quite often that I started monk in ARR, and been with the "lack of evolution" ever since. I don't mind GL when everything is clicking along, the MT isn't moving the boss, I have melee DPS in the party, yeah GL is stupid easy to keep up now. But that's about it really. I can't use TK, anataman is borderline useless, SSS is weak and unnecessary, WOW this is just a broken record...seriously.

I think the issue here is that idea behind the design flaws of monk are trying SOOO hard to be different, but fail to meet expectations for what I think I can speak for everyone "Have missed the mark". SE can't design a class for 1 out of 20million subs and be ok with this. I understand you like the class in how it plays now, but for everyone else that want's to keep playing it or pick it up it has a steep learning curve. I don't think it's hard to update monk to keep the same playstyle. Keeping the speed, the positional's, the quick game play. I have never said take all that away....I don't want any of that to change. Just give me a REASON to use TK, SSS, Anatman, Brotherhood. These are the last 30 levels of skills. I'm not blind to this at all and my eyes are wide open.

I try to put myself in other peoples shoes and GIVE the benefit of the doubt. Seriously think about how monk plays now from 1-50....it's HORRIBLE. I even try to put myself in the shoes of others that think monk is fine the way it is, AND try to change my rotation or playstyle. But the annoying issues keep rearing their ugly heads.

The truth is monk is not fine....and hasn't been for a LONG time. Otherwise SE would not be taking steps to change it completely. I think it's a disservice to the class if I DIDN'T voice my opinions since I think it is one of the most demanding classes to play.

Like I have said numerous times. Something has to give! And it's just not me saying this, or a select few. It's A LOT of individuals mentioning this, i'm just more vocal about it because like I keep saying "I identify with Monk" I'm not saying this for fun or to turn my nose up to other DPS classes. It's simply true that the class does NOT play well for some. I find playing Monk exhausting due to it's break neck nature. This doesn't have to be the case.

I can't be the ONLY one that thinks this.

[reyre]

...

No, i dont like how the class plays now, that is literally not what i wrote.

Is nice to see that you are making the same points that i did. It makes me wonder why did you wrote this because you are adding nothing much, then again you want your voice to be heard so it makes sense that you are repeating over and over again the same thing.

[Shurrikhan]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of support skills would be better served if TP were, well, still a resource (or MP a resource on non-casters and made more diversely a one on classes that already use it). At that point you could have Mantra, Brotherhood, and a couple forms of burst direct damage consume it, so you aren't effectively "taxed" just for having access to Mantra/Brotherhood, but instead in proportion to their use.

...I'd still revise Brotherhood to just increase all skills' potency by 5%, though, instead of letting it lock us into physical comps.

[reyre]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of support skills would be better served if TP were, well, still a resource (or MP a resource on non-casters and made more diversely a one on classes that already use it). At that point you could have Mantra, Brotherhood, and a couple forms of burst direct damage consume it, so you aren't effectively "taxed" just for having access to Mantra/Brotherhood, but instead in proportion to their use.

...I'd still revise Brotherhood to just increase all skills' potency by 5%, though, instead of letting it lock us into physical comps.

I think that a lot of factors made MNK skills redundant. If TP still existed, as you said, it would be an interesting way to use other skills SsS comes to mind, even anatman.
I do recall that fights like Avatar were almost a race against TP (that and, of course the, abuse of fracture+ToD+Demo) so it actually makes sense that chakra (with TP in mind) works the way it does.

In fact This makes me wonder about SkS as a whole, at least in the melee side. Does any melee actually uses SkS melds or pieces? I know NIN and SAM have their own baked-in SkS increase in their rotations and DRG kind of cant have high SkS because of the jumps (and honestly it doesnt even need SkS). So they dont really use pieces with SkS and then there is MNK that avoids SkS like the plague...So why is this even there? I am guessing is to have options, but it feels kind of pointles. Maybe i am focusing a bit too much on raiding and there are other uses for SkS outside raids.

Its almost a DNC situation, as in the class that benefits the most from having dance partner is MNK (no, not DMG wise) because extra crit reduces RNG. Following that line of thought while most classes benefit from not having TP, MNK is the one that, kind of, suffers from the lack of it.

I, however, would just kill the extra effect of brotherhood, that 30% chakra generation RNG feels wrong.

[Beddict]

Does any melee actually uses SkS melds or pieces?

The 2.38 GCD DRG set does actually use SkS melds, but The Balance states that it's not for DRG mains and more for non-DRG mains who find the Job a bit too slow and want to go a bit faster. It's functional, but it isn't recommended.

[Shurrikhan]

I do recall that fights like Avatar were almost a race against TP (that and, of course the, abuse of fracture+ToD+Demo) so it actually makes sense that chakra (with TP in mind) works the way it does.

Man, I was a Fracture-ToD-abusing* SkS junkie. That fight got me so bad it made me wish Bards had a single-target song-focusing option. Like, just imagine if the benefits were allotted based on proximity. I'd force my Bard to be glued to me between every ranged mechanic.

* Before anyone gets up in arms, I'm not saying it was somehow an exploit. I was just the jerk who'd sooner ask my Bard for Army's Paeon 40 seconds early than have to clip Twin Snakes a couple seconds early every other rotational string.

In fact this makes me wonder about SkS as a whole, at least in the melee side. Does any melee actually uses SkS melds or pieces?

SAM actually puts it to decent enough use and it makes the job so much more fun that I have to say it's pretty useful. The excess can be perfectly absorbed through a Yuki-HG or Gekko/Kasha-HG, or when your comp has no significant raid buffs, you can actually just plow right through to get more Shoha stacks at the cost of some delay to TG. I run about 3.3k SkS with food, maybe a little more and since it hits breakpoints I'm still barely missing on Monk (getting Twin to last to all but Twin itself in Double-True was more than 600 SkS ago, iirc) I've actually been enjoying it a bit more than Monk itself. Well, for that reason and that TK, SsS, Anatman, etc. are more than kinda crap right now.

As for what it would mean for TP to still be a thing, or MP a thing for all classes, all I can say is it'd definitely require a minor change and would best be exploited with a few larger ones. For instance, I'd been pushing to make MP and TP ticks GCD based (at 20% less raw value, ofc) since... early ARR, I think, just because of how badly it punishes SkS builds. That said, I'd like to more or less remove the ability to outright TP/MP starve, such as by having their costs reduce the lower your %TP/MP is, but with a proportionate decrease in output. It'd then be punishing, but never removing potential gameplay. And voila, now you can steadily return Rockbreaker as even a single-target utility skill (batter him up, break his armor, or maintain GL from range) balanced around its TP cost. Etc., etc.

Following that line of thought, while most classes benefit from not having TP, MNK is the one that, kind of, suffers from the lack of it.

While I don't actually think it was that big a deal on Monk (contrary to what I just put above, I know), though only because so few opportunities were taken in the first place, I think you're noting something far too many have forgotten. A restriction or restrictive resource, even if literally a limitation, can be a very good thing for design because it actually opens up the potential for complexity and skill-diversity over the gameplay it limits. So long as the considerations it causes create a playflow that is more engaging and fun than without them (all relevant annoyances or lack thereof included), that's an improvement.

I even try to put myself in the shoes of others that think monk is fine the way it is, AND try to change my rotation or playstyle. But the annoying issues keep rearing their ugly heads.

As often the case, added SkS does help, but unlike with late SB, it can't completely solve anything. In late SB, you could build up enough speed that DK would only fall off before DK itself and Twin before Twin, costing you a "whopping" 29 to 38 potency for a far larger increase when performing a Double-True rotation, and safely get an extra TK per PB volley to boot, or use it with RoW alone while still precisely hitting Twin/DK timings. It felt great, just by pushing through the no-mans-land to the side of true SkS junkies.

But in ShB? SsS is still garbage, TK is still garbage, and you're actually even more obliged to use the Anatman opener than lower speeds (though, I guess every build is now, given that RoF and PB are now synced).

Outside of that (and only because i have high ping) make PB be 11 seconds, that simple change would almost certantly kill 90% of high ping complains.

Not to be overly nitpicky, but, GCDs aren't going to be affected except perhaps on the very first action that requires the oGCD's activation, until over 250 ms ping, simply because the client will ping the server for any GCDs 500 ms in advance. oGCDs, on the other hand, take roughly twice one's ping in uptime cost. (That's largely why RoF really did have a positive impact on lower SkS, high-ping Monks in regards to double-weaving. I sure as hell felt the difference before upgrading my internet.) Worse, extending the duration to 11 seconds means that high-SkS and (now) low-ping players like me will be able to get an extra action out of it, even while the high-ping players are unlikely to.

You'd be much better off having the duration have a "pre-stage" of sorts, or begin to tick down only after the completion of a relevant action, and offer it a bit of extra strength in the form of depositing the Monk into a "Chimera" or "All-" stance of sorts when it ends. That way one could at least recover if packet loss ate their Coeurl input and gave them their following non-Coeurl skill instead as their last PB action.

I would like postionals to feel meaningful, not just "LOL if its not leadenfist who cares if i miss it"

Final note: Even ignoring Leaden Fist, Monk positionals are still at least as significant as those of the other melee if you put them in the context of positional ppgcd. SAM has 73 positional epotency per combo, at most 73 positional epotency in a given GCD, 146 per rotational string, and therefore averages some 14.6 positional eppgcd. DRG has at has most 44 epositional potency in a given GCD, 176 per rotational string, and therefore 17.6 eppgcd. Ninja has at most 60 epotency in a given GCD, 60 in each combo, averaging a little under 20 ppgcd. Given Monk's 1.54x damage modifier under Twin + GL4, Monk's raw 20 potency per positional is already more than 30. Even exempting the massive value of Leaden Fists, Monk would already be holding 30 ppgcd, more than double that of Samurai, for instance.

But, admittedly, I would also prefer for the potency variance to be a bit larger, especially if we could have back some stance-less, position-less skills to weave into our rotation appropriately (a la Fracture and ToD as just over average ppgcd so that they can be flexibly timed but still afford some skill-gap with further optimization of their own).

[Ultimatecalibur]

one ilm punch was a one trick skill, its use was almost sorely for removing stoneskin on enemies on arr and hw, since it hardly affected anything else, and i mean, it was capable to remove other stuff, but dmg buffs were not one of those things what one ilm punch was capable to remove
and i mean, if one ilm punch was capable to do what you mentioned, the comunity could not have called one ilm punch a useless skill, and neither the dev team make a quest mention it as joke in a quest

We actually do not know how many ARR and HW buffs are removable (and how many StB and ShB might have) because the only way to know which ones are removable was using One-ilm punch (and now using Blue's Eerie Soundwave and the Dispel Logos Action). Cleansable debuffs and actions that can be Silenced/Interrupted had similar problems before the UI was altered so that they could be identifiable. I wonder how many enemy buffs would suddenly have an identifier if enemy buffs got the same treatment.

[Shurrikhan]

We actually do not know how many ARR and HW buffs are removable (and how many StB and ShB might have) because the only way to know which ones are removable was using One-ilm punch (and now using Blue's Eerie Soundwave and the Dispel Logos Action). Cleansable debuffs and actions that can be Silenced/Interrupted had similar problems before the UI was altered so that they could be identifiable. I wonder how many enemy buffs would suddenly have an identifier if enemy buffs got the same treatment.

Yes, but one could always just... try to remove them and then see whether the (de)buff vanished. You couldn't tell beforehand, which made people more hesitant to use OiP/Esuna(/Exalted Detriment/Leeches) in some cases, but the results were plenty clear.

But yes, at this point, knowing which buffs were removable will therefore rely on the memory of ARR/HW Monk mains, and memory isn't perfect. That said, many of those skills could have also been reclassified since then, too (from purgeable to not), and we wouldn't be the wiser if dismissing memory.

[Tracewood]

Maybe have the combo ends of the MNK rotation to have positional points as opposed to every weaponskill. It worked pretty well when they revamped DRG and NIN. And those positional skills have higher potency and auto crit when done properly.

Rework Tornado Kick to be a "get back" attack skill like Redmage and Samurai, instead of eating your stacks.

As for Greased Lit. Rework it into something like the Beast Gauge, Where you can use Six Sided Star when the gauge gets to 50 and it's a very powerful attack.

Also give us a ranged attack for when we have to back off. A little chi blast, something.