Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Yes. I believe it was, because it's always been an option that has always been potency bonus at high SkS.

Again, 54-69 potency per use is more than significant. As in not "miniscule". As in roughly three positional bonuses.

You do not reap the benefits after only 3 rotations. You reap it every other. Twin Snakes has zero chance of falling off of Leaden Fist unless you are running absolute bare minimum SkS, which does not align well for RoF phases anyways. Note, by 3701 SkS, I don't even lose Twin Snakes, period.


For 5.x specifically, perhaps not. By all means, ask for it to be buffed to 16s, since the devs have yet to remotely care about the leveling experience anyways. But its being there at all, long before 5.x, is sure as hell intentional; it's been here from the start and worked well enough to be a situational to constant rotational bonus long before GL4, so I'm not about to throw my hands in the air just because rotational compromise is suddenly visible even to my lowest SkS build.

My mistake I put after 3, but I meant on the 3rd. As Rotation 1 you'd Twin, then 2nd you'd True and 3rd you'd True again, only seeing the benefit then.

Your main point was this rotation was intended (to which you've gone back on that slightly now for 5.0). My point is it isn't with how tight it is with the room for error. Also, my original reply was to someone mentioning the 5.x rotation, you replied to that involving yourself in the 5.x double true discussion. Anything that was feasible in the past was irrelevant to what was being discussed. I still highly doubt double true was the intended rotation devs had planned as they seem incapable of developing anything with such foresight into how the jobs will play at the end of an expansion because they don't test those GCD tiers. And because there are those few players that do break the GCD tiers and find a different, alternative combo to be taken advantage of doesn't mean it was intended. Such as the Double Full Thrust rotation in HW for DRG. No way in hell it was intended and required insane amounts of SkS to pull off but again, that required end of expansion (EoE) levels of substats to pull off. And I'm guessing prior to 5.x MNK would also have needed EoE substats to pull off a double true rotation, not to mention it would have been completely cucked by RoF slow back then forcing the rotation to revert back.

We can probably argue this from both sides until we're blue in the face. If you think it was intended then all the more power to you, but from my observations across the job design, it wasn't intended. Especially so with the tight margin for error. Sure, you can break the intended rotation with huge amounts of SkS. That doesn't mean the devs intended it. I can get stacks of GL from an Anatman opener; doesn't mean it's intended. I would love an extra 1-2s on Twin. I'm sure on a reddit post I mentioned they should embrace the double true rotation and extend Twin slightly but they won't because this is MNK we're talking about.
I never said Twin would fall off unless you factor in the margin for error such as clipping or disengages.

[Shiroe]

TS buff should be applied back into the old rotation

TK and SSS need reworks (maybe turn into 4th part combos with positionals like mentioned in an earlier post)

....

and maybe give Mnk a gap increaser that extends GL form / stack or something, (so can disengaged with max GL timer / stacks), and make shoulder tackel "proc" after using "disengage", so ST can keep max stacks of GL

[SpeckledBurd]

TS buff should be applied back into the old rotation

TK and SSS need reworks (maybe turn into 4th part combos with positionals like mentioned in an earlier post)

....

and maybe give Mnk a gap increaser that extends GL form / stack or something, (so can disengaged with max GL timer / stacks), and make shoulder tackel "proc" after using "disengage", so ST can keep max stacks of GL

Depending on where they put the potency, working the Twin Snakes buff back into the old rotation would require them to remove GL4 to make it unusable, otherwise they just buff Double True Strike again.

I don't think they'll do that considering GL4 is the one thing people are mostly positive on when it comes to Shadowbringers Monk. It’s got complaints but they’re directed at the Fist Stances more than it.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Working the Twin Snakes buff back into the old rotation would require them to remove GL4 to make it unusable, otherwise they just buff Double True Strike.

I don't think they'll do that considering GL4 is the one thing people are mostly positive on when it comes to Shadowbringers Monk.

Yeah, I have actually seen very little complaints in regards to GL4. Most seem to be that they they clip due to bad ping, or, as previously discussed throughout the forums the fact that it's tied to FoW. The speed of GL4 is nice, but the damage increase of power associated with it is kind of lessened due to the FoF buff. If anything, the FoF trait (god I hate traits for fist stances, especially when they can and have buffed them through patches without the need of traits...) detracted from the anticipation of getting GL4. At least for me, when I saw that FoF got a trait for 10% damage, my first thought was: "but why? Does that mean GL4 is basically just going to be the same but faster?". I do like GL4, but I wish there was more substance to MNK as opposed to 'here, go fast for as long as you can.'

[SpeckledBurd]

Yeah, I have actually seen very little complaints in regards to GL4. Most seem to be that they they clip due to bad ping, or, as previously discussed throughout the forums the fact that it's tied to FoW. The speed of GL4 is nice, but the damage increase of power associated with it is kind of lessened due to the FoF buff. If anything, the FoF trait (god I hate traits for fist stances, especially when they can and have buffed them through patches without the need of traits...) detracted from the anticipation of getting GL4. At least for me, when I saw that FoF got a trait for 10% damage, my first thought was: "but why? Does that mean GL4 is basically just going to be the same but faster?". I do like GL4, but I wish there was more substance to MNK as opposed to 'here, go fast for as long as you can.'

I was genuinely surprised that GL4 was a permanent buff instead of a temporary buff we’d enter for 20 seconds at a time or so. People hated slowing down for Riddle of Fire but I doubt that people would care about dropping back to normal if we temporarily sped up instead.

[Irisdina_Wiloh]

That buff to FoF was one of the most jarring additions with SHB, it felt like they didnt know what else to do at that level point other than give FoF a small buff because they didnt want to give us GL4 at that level? I'm definitely glad either way, that GL4 is a permanent buff and not a buff window.

Is anyone else starting to get slightly nervous again thinking about the next expac? It's not that far away now already (although I guess it might run into delays now due to what's been happening) and I'm already starting to think back to the "leaks" we got just before SHB came out of the job reworks and how awful some of the weaponskills and traits were. The other thread that's on the front page right now from FLeet229 seemed really good to me with most of their suggestions being really solid without making sweeping changes to how Monk would play and I'm hoping that SE see it and maybe implement some of the changes. If SE is really lost for what they can add to Monk, it wouldn't be ideal but I can't say I'd be upset about some of the changes being traits, like at 82 you can now have 10 Chakra etc.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

I was genuinely surprised that GL4 was a permanent buff instead of a temporary buff we’d enter for 20 seconds at a time or so. People hated slowing down for Riddle of Fire but I doubt that people would care about dropping back to normal if we temporarily sped up instead.

I thought that it may be a temporary buff as well at one point before SB came out. I like that it's permanent however, but dislike that they got rid of so many oGCDs to compensate as they clearly just thought we'd be going 'too fast' which, personally, I don't think we are and certainly didn't think we needed to lose so much because of speed. If the devs paid attention to forums then we wouldn't have RNG chakras going into ShB which is the biggest offender when it came to CD timings because it more often than not set other oGCDs back one GCD during burst windows which messed with CD timings and forced double weaves at the time. Instead of sorting out the root issue, they got rid of the other skills which sorted out a symptom rather than the cause.

I like a lot of Fleet229's ideas such as:

Perfect Balance being a fixed amount of GCDs.
Changes to TK and 6SS to make them apart of the rotation.
10 Chakras. I disapprove that they make that a trait in the next expansion. It needs to happen this expansion, no overflow absolutely sucks, which forces TFC as top priority forcing all other CDs back a GCD. FIX THISSSSS.
The Brotherhood Change is also very nice and allows for consistent chakra generating.
etc.

What I dislike about it is:

No positional on raptor form. I like positionals personally. We just need a buffer skill to allow us to use our brain and engage with the job aside from hitting RoE and forgetting about them for 30s.

In my opinion, if the devs were to change skills based on his feedback I'd welcome it until next expansion.

[Irisdina_Wiloh]

Solid post Sora, I think you're correct that the Chakra change should happen this expac, if they're able to solve small things like Shoha for Samurai, why can't we have something as simple as 5 extra stacks of Chakra being allowed now? Even PB becoming a fixed amount of GCDs feels like something they could enable now with little work.

Overall I think i'm in agreement with your points. I will admit of the few times I actually bothered doing savage fights this tier it did feel a bit headache inducing trying to time RoE correctly and not losing out on positional, last tier felt easier to me in that regard however, I'd be curious to know what you'd suggest as some sort of buffer skill? At this point, I'm sort of against them making drastic changes to the GCD flow rotation of Monk, I'm happy with it although i'd certainly like double true to just be the way we play now, trying to do that rotation on higher ping can be hard. Would you be in favour of something like ToD or Fracture returning to give you a gcd to play with if and maybe negate a potential lost positional?

[Ruiknao]

I thought that it may be a temporary buff as well at one point before SB came out. I like that it's permanent however, but dislike that they got rid of so many oGCDs to compensate as they clearly just thought we'd be going 'too fast' which, personally, I don't think we are and certainly didn't think we needed to lose so much because of speed. If the devs paid attention to forums then we wouldn't have RNG chakras going into ShB which is the biggest offender when it came to CD timings because it more often than not set other oGCDs back one GCD during burst windows which messed with CD timings and forced double weaves at the time. Instead of sorting out the route issue, they got rid of the other skills which sorted out a symptom rather than the cause.

I like a lot of Fleet229's ideas such as:

Perfect Balance being a fixed amount of GCDs.
Changes to TK and 6SS to make them apart of the rotation.
10 Chakras. I disapprove that they make that a trait in the next expansion. It needs to happen this expansion, no overflow absolutely sucks, which forces TFC as top priority forcing all other CDs back a GCD. FIX THISSSSS.
The Brotherhood Change is also very nice and allows for consistent chakra generating.
etc.

What I dislike about it is:

No positional on raptor form. I like positionals personally. We just need a buffer skill to allow us to use our brain and engage with the job aside from hitting RoE and forgetting about them for 30s.

In my opinion, if the devs were to change skills based on his feedback I'd welcome it until next expansion.

I think I'm more on Fleet229's side in terms of positionals, given that MNK is the fastest attacking job despite having the most positional requirements. But, if you're thinking of a buffer skill to handle positionals that isn't Riddle of Earth, could this work?

Blessing of Earth (Trait)
- Each time you land a weaponskill and meet its positional requirement, you are granted one stack of Earth's Blessing (up to a maximum of five).
- If you land a weaponskill, but don't meet its positional requirement, Earth's Blessing will ignore that positional requirement and one stack will be removed.
- Earth's Blessing stacks will not be granted or removed while under any other effect that ignores positional requirements, like True North.

[Kolsykol]

That buff to FoF was one of the most jarring additions with SHB, it felt like they didnt know what else to do at that level point other than give FoF a small buff because they didnt want to give us GL4 at that level? I'm definitely glad either way, that GL4 is a permanent buff and not a buff window.

Is anyone else starting to get slightly nervous again thinking about the next expac? It's not that far away now already (although I guess it might run into delays now due to what's been happening) and I'm already starting to think back to the "leaks" we got just before SHB came out of the job reworks and how awful some of the weaponskills and traits were. The other thread that's on the front page right now from FLeet229 seemed really good to me with most of their suggestions being really solid without making sweeping changes to how Monk would play and I'm hoping that SE see it and maybe implement some of the changes. If SE is really lost for what they can add to Monk, it wouldn't be ideal but I can't say I'd be upset about some of the changes being traits, like at 82 you can now have 10 Chakra etc.

Honestly I am even a bit nervous about just the next patch alone.
I've just been feeling so unmotivated as of late because I've sorta lost hope that anything is going to happen with Monk, thinking about the next expansion makes me even more nervous.

The devs have gotten a lot of great tips and discussion on this already, it's just that they need to act.