Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Why wouldn't it be intended? It's the same dilemma we've had since ARR when you could drop DK on Demo and DK and Twin on DK and Twin for only 51-61 potency lost, while gaining 105 potency (net: 44-54 potency bonus).

The only difference is the DK change making it feel awkward. Otherwise, it's just that everyone is now allowed what used to require a hefty investment into SkS.

Because if it was intended they wouldn't make it drop off momentarily. If the devs really thought it was intended then they wouldn't have increased the Disembowel timer on DRG because "it only has 1s left to refresh". We have 0s left to refresh and it didn't get increased. SE just doesn't design buffs around timers that are momentarily meant to drop off. Their 'usual' design philosophy has always had 1-3s to refresh said buff. Maybe I'm wrong, but it never seemed intentional as its DPS increase is so miniscule.

[Shurrikhan]

Because if it was intended they wouldn't make it drop off momentarily. If the devs really thought it was intended then they wouldn't have increased the Disembowel timer on DRG because "it only has 1s left to refresh".

The two cases are distinct.

Monk already had that exact same interaction you're seeing now. It's just reached at a much less SkS expenditure now than previously. At the SkS levels I played by the end of every expansion and even ARR itself, it was always a net potency loss to keep Twin up permanently.

Dragoon's problem came precisely from nerfing Disembowel's duration, causing an interaction that had never happened before, and, unlike Monk, was entirely unavoidable. They merely reverted an excessive loss of duration.
(They removed Heavy Thrust, which would have cost 1 GCD of duration per Disembowel, and removed 6 seconds (more than 2 GCDs) to compensate. It turns out, >2 is greater than 1.)

And that "miniscule" DPS increase amounts to roughly three positional bonuses. Should we pay those no heed either?

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

The two cases are distinct.

Monk already had that exact same interaction you're seeing now. It's just reached at a much less SkS expenditure now than previously. At the SkS levels I played by the end of every expansion and even ARR itself, it was always a net potency loss to keep Twin up permanently.

Dragoon's problem came precisely from nerfing Disembowel's duration, causing an interaction that had never happened before, and, unlike Monk, was entirely unavoidable. They merely reverted an excessive loss of duration.
(They removed Heavy Thrust, which would have cost 1 GCD of duration per Disembowel, and removed 6 seconds (more than 2 GCDs) to compensate. It turns out, >2 is greater than 1.)

And that "miniscule" DPS increase amounts to roughly three positional bonuses. Should we pay those no heed either?

So you think the double true rotation is intentional?

Did you also account for potential 1-2 unbuffed autos too? I attempted to work it out, under GL4, unbuffed Twin is equivalent to 238 Potency, and buffed Twin (10%) is 261.8. so it's a loss of 23.8 potency on Twin but gaining another buffed True Strike which is 369.6 potency. Resulting in an 84 potency increase (369.6 - 261.8 - 23.8). MNK autos are 109 potency on E8S weapon (twin buff and GL4 = 167.86. just GL4 buff = 152.6) so a loss of 15 potency without Twin. BUT there is a chance to miss 2 autos as Twin falls off immediately after BS is pressed and Twin is not applied until the end of its animation resulting in about a 2.5s~ window to get another unbuffed auto.

So the gain for Double True is at best 69 potency at GL4 and at worst 54. At GL4 it's worth 2 positional bonuses. Also, you have to remember you only reap the benefits of this rotation after 3 rotations. Which is equivalent to about 18-23 potency increase per rotation. Now factor in the margin for error and you instantly lose 63 potency off of a Bootshine if you clip or disengage for more than 0.1s. So yes, those bonuses are miniscule. For the effort required and the risk associated the increase IS miniscule. YES it's an increase but it's small.

So tell me, do you really think double true is intentional with less than a 0.1s leeway? It's not. If the devs wanted double true to be intentional and to be what we do at GL4 they would not make the margin for error that tight. I'm done with this arguement and discussion.

[hballamco]

MNK current opener and rotation are both happened by luck. I always fall off twin doing the double true thinking I was doing something wrong but thanks to your explanation I think I'm on the safe side XD

[Gojin]

rework Monk so it fights like Tifa from FF7 remake, now its just boring I dont want to have to think and pay attention to greased lightning stacks I just want to punch stuff.

[Kolsykol]

rework Monk so it fights like Tifa from FF7 remake, now its just boring I dont want to have to think and pay attention to greased lightning stacks I just want to punch stuff.

You don't actually have to pay attention to GL stacks tho.
You can even just keep them up with Form Shift inbetween pulls or if the boss goes away.

If anything it's more annoying now imo because I just build them up at the start and then I have to spam Form Shift the whole time as to not drop them.
It's sorta the same with Enochian inbetween packs and bosses, I really wish that the timer just paused outside of combat at least for like 30 sec or something.

[Gojin]

You don't actually have to pay attention to GL stacks tho.
You can even just keep them up with Form Shift inbetween pulls or if the boss goes away.

If anything it's more annoying now imo because I just build them up at the start and then I have to spam Form Shift the whole time as to not drop them.
It's sorta the same with Enochian inbetween packs and bosses, I really wish that the timer just paused outside of combat at least for like 30 sec or something.

Yeah thats annoying they need to up the timer or just drop it completely

[Nanchi]

I've been keeping up with this thread for a while and really don't have anything useful to add besides my personal feelings. The job being my absolute favorite since Heavensward and having played it in savage then and now in Shadowbringers is probably the biggest difference in "fun" I have ever had with monk. I'm by far not the best monk out there but never ever was I so frustrated playing a job in savage before. It IS lackluster compared to many other jobs, it hasn't evolved, rather devolved in my opinion. While it was fun to manage GL in HW, it is now an absolute chore to play around the boss encounters, to get the last drop of dps from your mediocore rotation. I think the moment I realized how stupid GL is, was in E3S, having to spam form shift in downtime while trying to avoid laser beams. Why is it that everyone else is allowed to move freely and pay attention to what is going on but I have to spam this skill like an absolute madman in order to not lose my GL. Also cutscenes/QTE being a frequent annoyance lately is the absolute worst for me. Anatman becomes useless when you get pulled into that, you lose your stacks anyway. And then having skills like Tornado Kick and SSS, rarely being used at all. Another thing that annoys me is having to keep an eye on your TS buff which can easily get lost with any other status when you're raiding (i had to switch it off in the end to only have my buffs displayed thankfully). Please give me an bigger indication how long I have for the buff, it feels awful enough trying to Leaden Fist while TS buff runs out 0.01 seconds later. Having rng locked behind another layer of rng, I want to talk to the person who decided that such a thing would be enjoyable to anyone. Personal pet peeve is our highest potency skill being TK, that's truly an insult. I understand why it exists but it feels wrong having to build up GL just to lose it again for damage that's truly not worth it.
I love monk, I truly do. I want nothing more than to have it mean more than it is right now. I'm not an martial-arts kinda person, but the way they handled monk in the past was so much fun to play, I wish they would give it more love. Until then I'll quit raiding and just enjoy the game in another aspect, this is truly too painful for me.

[Shurrikhan]

So you think the double true rotation is intentional?

Yes. I believe it was, because it's always been an option that has always been potency bonus at high SkS.

Again, 54-69 potency per use is more than significant. As in not "miniscule". As in roughly three positional bonuses.

You do not reap the benefits after only 3 rotations. You reap it every other. Twin Snakes has zero chance of falling off of Leaden Fist unless you are running absolute bare minimum SkS, which does not align well for RoF phases anyways. Note, by 3701 SkS, I don't even lose Twin Snakes, period.

So tell me, do you really think double true is intentional with less than a 0.1s leeway?

For 5.x specifically, perhaps not. By all means, ask for it to be buffed to 16s, since the devs have yet to remotely care about the leveling experience anyways. But its being there at all, long before 5.x, is sure as hell intentional; it's been here from the start and worked well enough to be a situational to constant rotational bonus long before GL4, so I'm not about to throw my hands in the air just because rotational compromise is suddenly visible even to my lowest SkS build.

[Noctisnine]

I'm just gonna leave this here and ask for opinions, it's not mine. https://imgur.com/gallery/pkAyBnM