Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Snip

I'm not sure what numbers you're looking at, but a lot of your MNK parses are wrong. Unless you can give a source to where you got those numbers.

Here's the current rDPS standings in FFLOGS as of today:

MONK

E5S - 19,827.67
E6S - 18,223.72
E7S - 18,430.14
E8S - 16,067.73

DRAGOON

E5S - 19,721.15
E6S - 18,899.32
E7S - 18,323.13
E8S - 15,791.82

NINJA

E5S - 19,655.62
E6S - 18,669.65
E7S - 18,215.48
E8S - 15,989.42

Sources:
E5S
E6S
E7S
E8S

At 99th percentile Ninja is ahead of both, DRG and MNK in fights that have more frequent disengages (E6S, E8S and is practically tied with it on E5S). Samurai just blows them all out the water though unfortunately.

This raid tier overall has been pretty diabolical for Melee with buffs, SAM's been pretty lucky in the sense that it doesn't have oGCD buffs such as: Lance Charge, BL, RoF, Brotherhood, TA windows etc. all of which can contribute to its higher DPS because these fights have multiple phase changes during buff windows which either get forced out of alignment. Needless to say SAM is naturally OP anyway, but this raid tier has really shown its strengths and brought to light just how far behind the others are. I'd say the balance between MNK, DRG and NIN is for the most part really good. So while yes, at max percentile MNK, with perfect RNG on crits, chakras etc MNK is ahead. It becomes a lot more even at the 99th percentile when you don't get the God runs, though still slightly ahead.

Still hoping for some changes to play for MNK in 5.3 considering they said there would be more job adjustments. Will our feedback fall on deaf ears or will they finally change some of the more immediate problems to at least make us fun to play again?

[Renkei]

I'm not sure what numbers you're looking at, but a lot of your MNK parses are wrong. Unless you can give a source to where you got those numbers.

Here's the current rDPS standings in FFLOGS as of today:

MONK

E5S - 19,827.67
E6S - 18,223.72
E7S - 18,430.14
E8S - 16,067.73

DRAGOON

E5S - 19,721.15
E6S - 18,899.32
E7S - 18,323.13
E8S - 15,791.82

NINJA

E5S - 19,655.62
E6S - 18,669.65
E7S - 18,215.48
E8S - 15,989.42

Sources:
E5S
E6S
E7S
E8S

At 99th percentile Ninja is ahead of both, DRG and MNK in fights that have more frequent disengages (E6S, E8S and is practically tied with it on E5S). Samurai just blows them all out the water though unfortunately.

This raid tier overall has been pretty diabolical for Melee with buffs, SAM's been pretty lucky in the sense that it doesn't have oGCD buffs such as: Lance Charge, BL, RoF, Brotherhood, TA windows etc. all of which can contribute to its higher DPS because these fights have multiple phase changes during buff windows which either get forced out of alignment. Needless to say SAM is naturally OP anyway, but this raid tier has really shown its strengths and brought to light just how far behind the others are. I'd say the balance between MNK, DRG and NIN is for the most part really good. So while yes, at max percentile MNK, with perfect RNG on crits, chakras etc MNK is ahead. It becomes a lot more even at the 99th percentile when you don't get the God runs, though still slightly ahead.

Still hoping for some changes to play for MNK in 5.3 considering they said there would be more job adjustments. Will our feedback fall on deaf ears or will they finally change some of the more immediate problems to at least make us fun to play again?

I used the same thing as you but didn't use a 2 week metric as i feel as its inaccurate. SAM has the least positional and loses the least potency from missing them, they also have a 880 Potency a minute AOE Catching Counter attack. I am hoping all 3 Melees in this area get slight buffs or changes. They never fixed DRG's 10 second timers either. :[ I don't think the jobs are balanced enough, Playing Samurai myself i feel as if Samurai has all these tools baked into their kit that gives them rewards but hardly anything to punish them, 1.2 seconds of casting isn't very much for how high their mobility is and their lack of chunkiness.

[Shurrikhan]

AOE options and Single Target options like Foul and Xenoglossy aren't necessarily a good comparison to things like Tornado Kick and Six Sided Star. The use cases for AOE skills is trash elimination in dungeon content which is like 85% of a dungeons duration, the uses for single target skills are bosses of dungeons, and 8-man content. Between those two types of content there's very obvious uses to those skills and ample opportunity for them. Tornado Kick's use case is "Execute at the end of a fight or dungeon because keeping my stacks is more valuable, unless there's a transition that takes forever mid fight where you also don't have to move at all so Anatman can be used" which is basically never, coupled with a cool animation and a high enough potency that it frequently serves as a trap for new players, and Six Sided Star's "Slightly longer but not quite so long disconnects" also with a cool animation and a high potency.

And I'm not saying that's okay, but it is disingenuous to pretend Monk is unique in having priority conflicts or situational skills or that those concepts are inherently flawed. They're not. It's a matter of their presentation.

I used the same thing as you but didn't use a 2 week metric as i feel as its inaccurate. SAM has the least positional and loses the least potency from missing them, they also have a 880 Potency a minute AOE Catching Counter attack. I am hoping all 3 Melees in this area get slight buffs or changes. They never fixed DRG's 10 second timers either. :[ I don't think the jobs are balanced enough, Playing Samurai myself i feel as if Samurai has all these tools baked into their kit that gives them rewards but hardly anything to punish them, 1.2 seconds of casting isn't very much for how high their mobility is and their lack of chunkiness.

The potency of their counter attack is only the difference between its efficiency and that of the most efficient consistently available shared resource spender, Shinten. It's therefore a bonus of 60 potency, less than a positional, per use, not 220, or at most 240 ppm.

And Midare is plenty chunky. (I kid; I realize you meant clunky.)

[Mikey_R]

Dragoon Reporting in, Right now it's mostly Samurai, Monk and Dragoon are doing poorly along with Ninja, Though Ninja has the most powerful disengage option. Monk Out Performs Both classes and the majority of the fights with the exception of the second fight of course.


E5S > E8S.

MONK
21,641.7
18,633.2
21,072
17,682.5

DRAGOON
19,845.2
19,153.2
19,408.2
15,591.6

NINJA
19,706.8
18,470.1
17,543.0
15,431.8

Except the original point made by Noctisnine had nothing to do with DPS and everything to do with how the job plays, which is a common misunderstanding that people who maybe don't play monk frequently have.

[Ruiknao]

Looking to throw out an idea I’ve been having with Greased Lightning recently. I was playing FF7R and I remember how Tifa can use an ability to build up her Chi level, increasing her damage dealt. Then at the cost of a Chi level can use a strong attack. I’ve been wondering if Monk can do something similar with Greased Lightning.

For example, they could increase the duration of Greased Lightning to 45 seconds, and when that runs out, only one stack fades and the duration resets. However, instead of Snap Punch, Demolish, or Rockbreaker building GL stacks, they could possibly use Form Shift or Anatman. Anatman can grant a GL stack upon use and Form Shift can do the same. Meanwhile, Snap Punch, Demolish and Rockbreaker can reduce the recast timer of Anatman by 5 seconds, quite like WAR’s Infuriate. With that in place, they could add a new attack that costs one GL stack with the damage it deals based on the current duration left on GL, with a lower duration dealing more damage.

While I don’t know how well this idea can work, I think it would make GL feel more like a resource to keep track of, and help MNKs recover from deaths a bit more easily.

[Mikey_R]

Looking to throw out an idea I’ve been having with Greased Lightning recently. I was playing FF7R and I remember how Tifa can use an ability to build up her Chi level, increasing her damage dealt. Then at the cost of a Chi level can use a strong attack. I’ve been wondering if Monk can do something similar with Greased Lightning.

For example, they could increase the duration of Greased Lightning to 45 seconds, and when that runs out, only one stack fades and the duration resets. However, instead of Snap Punch, Demolish, or Rockbreaker building GL stacks, they could possibly use Form Shift or Anatman. Anatman can grant a GL stack upon use and Form Shift can do the same. Meanwhile, Snap Punch, Demolish and Rockbreaker can reduce the recast timer of Anatman by 5 seconds, quite like WAR’s Infuriate. With that in place, they could add a new attack that costs one GL stack with the damage it deals based on the current duration left on GL, with a lower duration dealing more damage.

While I don’t know how well this idea can work, I think it would make GL feel more like a resource to keep track of, and help MNKs recover from deaths a bit more easily.

Some things wrong with this;

1. You want Monks to slow themselves down by losing a GL stack to use a strong attack and then use a GCD to get the stack back, making that rotation; Strong attack -> No Attack -> back to normal, remembering you get a slowdown after your strong attack, which people generally do not like (look at old RoF), add to that any oGCD in that is used after that strong attack would do less damage, if this happens to be something like Elixir Field, it can start to drift away from landing in RoF.

2. Going with how that would feel to use. You use a strong attack, you spend a GCD doing basically nothing, and then you get back to what you are doing. That would just completely destroy the flow of Monk and also how it would feel to use it. It would feel like you were being punished for being right.

3. Assume Anatman went back to an oGCD so you don't have the situation described in point 2. Then I would personally feel that it is extra button bloat for no reason. Just have this strong attack be a GCD on a 45 second cooldown like Gnashing Fang on GNB or Drill on MCH. They are basically the same things and from my personal opinion, I would prefer the cooldown GCD.

4. Your change to GL mechanics, I assume every time you refresh, you gain a stack and it resets the timer, however, why have an attack based on a knife edge like that. People will want to push that attack right to the last second, but what if they miss, the lose a GL stack just before the attack goes off, they are now 2 stacks down. No other job punishes this harsh, the closest i can think of is BLM, even then though, they have plenty of time to get everything they need in (and their damage isn't based on how low the enochian timer is).

---

As a general comment, for the most part, when I see suggestions to Monk, they always seem overly complicated and with the fact SE want to make the jobs simple, that seems counter intuitive. Don't keep something and try and find a weird obscure mechanic just to keep it relevant. If it doesn't provide something, get rid of it (fist stances), for things to add, why not look at what we lost and maybe change them a bit (ToD, but tie it to a cooldown, again like MCH Drill), of which you can then go every tick, or every other tick, gain a Chakra, there you go, a guaranteed way to generate Chakra and it brings back an old ability.

For Tornado Kick Change GL slightly so that when you use a Coeurl ability at max stacks, you gain additional stacks that do nothing for damage/speed, but at 3, you can spend them for a free Tornado Kick, when GL4 becomes a thing, you can store 4, but TK still only uses 3, giving a bit more flexibility in how you use it. You could potentially add the ability for these extra stacks to be a GL lifeline, if you have an extra stack, when your GL runs out, it consumes one to keep you at max GL.

I've just been giving basic ideas here, feel free to comment. Good, bad, hmm, interesting etc. Personally, My idea of monk would be to go back to what I thought ARR monk was, and that is a fast, high crit job. We have the fast, but the high crit is lacking. Bring back Internal Release, change Dragon Kick to a Crit buff, or even a Direct Hit buff, solves the leaden fist issue of making bootshine such a high damage skill and has that feel of a crit machine. Again, you might not like that idea, so feel free to comment.

[Ruiknao]

snip

Well, I can’t really argue with the points you made, other than maybe point 4 as the damage increase could happen in split intervals of 10 seconds, but I didn’t clarify that, which is my mistake. Honestly, the idea came to mind while playing FF7R and thinking to myself “Hm, I wonder if this is something that Monks can use?”. I could’ve put more thought into it and didn’t really consider the factors you brought up.

What you suggested is interesting though and would definitely fix a few things on Monk’s current design. In terms of keeping it simple, I think they could make Greased Lightning and Tornado Kick function similarly to DRG’s Blood of the Dragon or BLM’s Enochian. However, that could be too much copying and pasting, and people have been quite divisive on that. There is one idea I’ve seen people suggest on this forum that I like, which is the idea of a ‘Blitz’ system. From what I’ve read, it sounds like a variation of NIN’s Mudras that involves going into a ‘Perfect Balance’ state and using MNK’s attacks in certain orders to get different finishers, but I could be wrong. It sounds a little ‘copy-pasting’, but I like how it compliments MNK’s freeform style.

Honestly though, I just want MNK to feel like a class where its mechanics and abilities flow together, and designed in a way that makes sense. I’ve been playing MNK since ARR, and it’s frustrating seeing it turn into the confused mess it is now. I understand that the developers are busy with all of the other aspects of FFXIV, but I hope that they have taken notice of MNKs situation and do something about it, hopefully for the better.

[Crownshorts]

What are everyone’s feelings about monks reliance on positionals?

Monks definitely seems to be the class with the biggest focus on positionals, with almost every ability having a bonus based on position. I am not a big fan of positionals, but I will admit I am a very casual player and still learning.

Do you think monks should have their positional abilities toned down a bit, or are they good where they are?

[Dyvid]

Though I've only recently starting leveling MNK, it seems to be a job of contradictions. You build up Grease Light to improve DPS then spend it for a Tornado Kick. You stop DPS to push Mediate only to do a meh DPS attack. Just a weird way to do business.

The two key features that standout for me are GCD speed and abundant requirement of Positionals. That is what really makes Monk unique and that is what should be built on.

[Shurrikhan]

Though I've only recently starting leveling MNK, it seems to be a job of contradictions. You build up Grease Light to improve DPS then spend it for a Tornado Kick. You stop DPS to push Mediate only to do a meh DPS attack. Just a weird way to do business.

In case those aren't meant just to be points where reality differs from appearance, you don't spend GL on TK except at the end of an instance or before 9+ seconds of forced downtime that you can spend immobile, and you don't use Meditate (your, effectively, Ranged attack) when you can still use melee attacks. Like Piercing Talon and the 5-Kenki variant of Hagakure, they are too weak to be used except in very niche situations. At least, unlike Higanbana Gaeshi, there is at least a situation or two in existence where they deserve to be used, but that's about all I can say for them.

If that was the purpose of those examples, I apologize and consider your point well made.