Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Shurrikhan]

@SpeckledBurd: Thank you for the detailed answers. To further look at two areas in particular, though...

1. Traditional Monk means of mobility vs. borrowed mobility options:

Monk's mobility is the worst out of the melee and the 5% modifier to movement speed on Fists of Wind is so inconsequential it doesn't help at all. Give Monk a backstep and a 5-10 yalm forward Dash similar to En Avant, both should have charges and neither should do any damage.

Could more traditional means also have sufficed? For instance,

• GL generates as much movement speed as attack speed, allowing us to better keep up with the added pace of positioning. (Total of 20% movement speed bonus when ramped up, up from 5%. Granted, this all would have to be changed with GL becoming "traits", but this is just for purpose of illustration for now.)
• Riddle of Wind returns as a zero-potency mobility tool, replacing Shoulder Tackle while Tackle is on cooldown, available once per Shoulder Tackle recharge period. (You can add to this backstep functionality when within melee range of a target, target-less dash functionality when no target is selected, etc., or just leave it equal to Shoulder Tackle as before.)

Would we still then need to copy Yaten and En Avant via separate buttons?

2. Leaden Fist

The potency difference between a hit and a missed Leaden Bootshine is absurdly high, and it's absurdly punishing to miss it as a result. It's functionally the same as missing nearly every positional a Dragoon would have in 10 GCDs. Dragon Kick should be turned into a second self buff that affects all outgoing damage instead of just hypercharging a positional, or the damage boost needs to be positional independent.

Would this essentially mimic the previous version of Dragon Kick, or would there be something new? Are there any particular implementations that would stand out to you as exciting, functional, and "Monk-like"?

[SpeckledBurd]

Could more traditional means also have sufficed? For instance,

• GL generates as much movement speed as attack speed, allowing us to better keep up with the added pace of positioning. (Total of 20% movement speed bonus when ramped up, up from 5%. Granted, this all would have to be changed with GL becoming "traits", but this is just for purpose of illustration for now.)
• Riddle of Wind returns as a zero-potency mobility tool, replacing Shoulder Tackle while Tackle is on cooldown, available once per Shoulder Tackle recharge period. (You can add to this backstep functionality when within melee range of a target, target-less dash functionality when no target is selected, etc., or just leave it equal to Shoulder Tackle as before.)

Would we still then need to copy Yaten and En Avant via separate buttons?

Boosting Monk's native movement speed further as an alternative to having better movement actions has a couple of problems. The biggest one is that it's trying to compete against skills that provide what amounts to instant movement with non-instant movement. If it's sufficient then Monk will fundamentally be able to Shukuchi constantly, but if it's insufficient then Monk still has the worst mobility of the Melee. The other problem is that moving at higher speeds makes positioning for certain more precise mechanics more difficult than necessary.

Riddle of Wind returning as a zero potency mobility tool is a better idea, but I don't see them doing that since they seem to have converted that concept into Charges. Really the best change they could make to Shoulder Tackle would be to revert it to how it worked in ARR by giving it a 10-yalm minimum range from the boss rather than it being a skill you have to hammer on cooldown (with them moving the potency to a new skill or just bringing back Steel Peak at a different potency and a 30 second cooldown). I frankly don't see a reason why there needs to be an incentive to use your gap-closer as DPS cooldown on Monk at least.

I also disagree that giving Monk a mobility tool identical to another job is a problem at all. Why? Well every "Normal" movement option is already implemented in some form on another job. Ninja already has a ground targeted teleport, Samurai has a backstep relative to an enemy, Dragoon has the backstep based on character orientation, and Dancer has forward dashes based on character orientation. That's basically the entirety of movement skills that can exist without the movement condition being just pointlessly unconventional. You could do something different but at that point you'd be sacrificing practicality for the sake of Monk having a skill that does something different, like having a 10 Yalm Back Step to the right. You aren't even gaining flavor at that point.

Frankly En Avant is the prime candidate for a skill to "copy" to Monk, because it's from a separate role entirely, on a Job whose playstyle is entirely distinct to Monk. Further, Monk having a forward dash fits well with an aggressive Martial Arts type, it doesn't matter that it already existing on an extremely different job shouldn't bar Monk from getting an equivalent.

Would this essentially mimic the previous version of Dragon Kick, or would there be something new? Are there any particular implementations that would stand out to you as exciting, functional, and "Monk-like"?

More or less. It could be something like a 5-10% boost to Crit or Direct Hit instead of it just being a second 10% damage up on the Monk to avoid redundancy with Twin Snakes.

[Shurrikhan]

If it's sufficient then Monk will fundamentally be able to Shukuchi constantly, but if it's insufficient then Monk still has the worst mobility of the Melee.

Let's keep in mind though that the passive mobility bonus wouldn't have to be your only means of mobility. Similarly, if passive, but not necessarily native, the duration could easily be limited; it could instead, say, be applied only after using "Wind-based" skills, such as Tackle, Tornado Kick, or after any damaging ability at all, etc.

Riddle of Wind returning as a zero potency mobility tool is a better idea, but I don't see them doing that since they seem to have converted that concept into Charges.

That's fair, but my issue with merely providing Charges (with no further ICD) to a potency skill is that, well, it's resultantly more about damage than mobility. Its mobility component is just that bit that most people look back at longingly after they've already used it to maximize DPS and have since screwed up.

In other words, the added Charge is sold as mobility when in practice it just adds a thin extra layer to damage-maximization.

It could be something like a 5-10% boost to Crit or Direct Hit instead of it just being a second 10% damage up on the Monk to avoid redundancy with Twin Snakes.

I get the desire not to merely have the same buff by two names (although that was entirely common when one was target-specific and the other was not), but wouldn't giving the same effect via Crit/DHit end up compounding its dependence on compositions, in ways we wanted to avoid (e.g. by rehauling Chakra and revising or delimiting Brotherhood)?
Sorry if I'm nitpicking what was meant only as a spitball.

[SpeckledBurd]

Edit: Something I just remembered, but Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood have literally no reason to be separate buttons. There's never a point where you want to use one and not the other.

Let's keep in mind though that the passive mobility bonus wouldn't have to be your only means of mobility. Similarly, if passive, but not necessarily native, the duration could easily be limited; it could instead, say, be applied only after using "Wind-based" skills, such as Tackle, Tornado Kick, or after any damaging ability at all, etc.

Yeah fair, it's easy to lose track of the broader scope when talking on a point by point basis. However I still don't think higher native movement speed will matter, nor will an additional sprint, when directly competing against skills that provide instantaneous movement across long distances.

That's fair, but my issue with merely providing Charges (with no further ICD) to a potency skill is that, well, it's resultantly more about damage than mobility. Its mobility component is just that bit that most people look back at longingly after they've already used it to maximize DPS and have since screwed up.

In other words, the added Charge is sold as mobility when in practice it just adds a thin extra layer to damage-maximization.

That's the current problem with Shoulder Tackle yes. My point was that I don't think the developers will bring back Riddle of Wind as a free tackle because that concept seems to have formed the foundation for charges on gap closers (and probably charges on actions in general).

I get the desire not to merely have the same buff by two names (although that was entirely common when one was target-specific and the other was not), but wouldn't giving the same effect via Crit/DHit end up compounding its dependence on compositions, in ways we wanted to avoid (e.g. by rehauling Chakra and revising or delimiting Brotherhood)?
Sorry if I'm nitpicking what was meant only as a spitball.

It shouldn't as long as Chakra is reubilt to not be connected to crit. At that point it just means Monk will crit 5% more than other jobs. What made previous Bard so attached to the Dragoon on top of Piercing was Battle Litany improving the proc rate of River of Blood in HW and Repertoire in SB. Monk having Internal Release in HW didn't make that dependence, it was having an additional resource that was contingent upon landing crits, as long as that interaction is gone a crit buff to the self is independent to the rest of the party.

[Sqwall]

It shouldn't as long as Chakra is reubilt to not be connected to crit. At that point it just means Monk will crit 5% more than other jobs. What made previous Bard so attached to the Dragoon on top of Piercing was Battle Litany improving the proc rate of River of Blood in HW and Repertoire in SB. Monk having Internal Release in HW didn't make that dependence, it was having an additional resource that was contingent upon landing crits, as long as that interaction is gone a crit buff to the self is independent to the rest of the party.

I agree with this as if we are to no longer have Internal Release and it's never coming back, then we need have something that isn't dependent on the whole party comp being specific. The RNG would be great IF the job complimented it fairly. We should not have to use food and gear specific stats/melds for us to get MEH chakra gains. Internal Release was so nice that I could pop it when I needed chackra fast before my riddle of fire came up. Monk needs passive crit chance buff or a skill to increase it in larger doses.

I have been in a Puppets Bunker run where I was lucky enough to be in a party of ALL monks. WOW...the comp is soooo amazing, damn near broken as we had a brotherhood/ROF buff running nearly constantly. So many forbidden's all over the place! But the next time I ran it...all casters. Brotherhood was so gimp I virtually got 2 chackra with each round of brotherhood. This can't be intentional to have 2 very huge differences in damage just with party comp.

[Shurrikhan]

Edit: Something I just remembered, but Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood have literally no reason to be separate buttons. There's never a point where you want to use one and not the other.

I feel like that might not be the case if Brotherhood's Damage component were removed and the Chakra generation furthered.

Without needing to hold Brotherhood for other's ramp-up or for its multiplicity with RoF, you'd instead want to use it first, to bank Chakra before RoF starts. But, that does indeed seem a tenuous reason to keep a second key.
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While we're on the subject, let's note that we also have zero need to keep Meditation and Form Shift as keys at all.

Form Shift can be handled passively by allowing access to (rather than moving you into) a further Form with each GCD spent off the GCD.

Meditation can be handled by passively generating a Chakra every half a GCD spent off the GCD.

The only difference would be that the two would no longer be in conflict, but that hardly seems a gameplay consideration worth spending two keys on.

Or, in this case, freeing up Meditation would allow for TFC to be spent at any amount of Chakra, thus clearing up our bankability issues; we need only spend whatever Chakra we have before the boss jumps away.

[Sqwall]

Or, in this case, freeing up Meditation would allow for TFC to be spent at any amount of Chakra, thus clearing up our bankability issues; we need only spend whatever Chakra we have before the boss jumps away.

I can't tell if your teasing the idea of having to spend chackra before a jump. Or being serious and not requiring to spend chackra before a jump. The whole disengagement argument for monk bores me as I hate that we are supposed to be the only disengage job in the game. I want to speculate and say monk disengaging and blowing all the GL it has as a last ditch effort was not the desired gameplay for the job despite who lack luster the one hit of TK truly is and if you indeed have 5 chackra before a jump. This argument is STILL pushing monk in a rigid style of game play focus on blowing your chackra and stacks before the jump. Even with anatman this isn't ideal, but that's just me.

Didn't know what your thoughts are here.

[Shurrikhan]

I can't tell if your teasing the idea of having to spend chackra before a jump. Or being serious and not requiring to spend chackra before a jump.

I meant no more than I said. The only Chakra-related interaction left would be that you spend it before the jump. That requires... spending it before the jump, just as one would with Repertoire, direct-damage CDs normally banked for damage-window CDs you'd otherwise end up holding too long, etc.

That means all the other BS is gone, i.e.

Previously, we literally had no good fit between boss jumps and Chakra; it was purely a matter of luck.
4 Chakra and boss jumps? Well, guess I'm getting only 74 downtime potency this jump (4 Chakra effectively wasted).
Chakra jumped right after using a newly available TFC? Cool. That's a an extra 296 potency I just net myself, through no skill of my own.

So, again, that BS RNG-based interaction with fight mechanics/timings is now gone. We're left instead with, say, the much fairer interactions of a Bard -- pop Perfect Pitch before the boss jumps and chances are you'll have another before the boss returns.

At that point, Monk would not be unique in regard to disengage-related considerations; Dancer, Ninja, BLM, Samurai (though Shoha would actually be worse than TFC now), and any job with high amount of oGCD banking potential would have it just as bad (or, involve just as much gameplay).

At "worst", like Samurai, Monk would just have something to do during the boss-jump while everyone else just idles (Anatman, in place of Meditate).

:: You already know my stance on Tornado Kick and Anatman, but that's rather out of scope for what was purely an de-clunk-ifying improvement to Meditation itself. If you want me to restate them, I will, but I don't see how I've been slyly ambiguous or disingenuous in wanting this simple intuitive improvement to Meditation/Chakra/TFC.