Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[HeulGDarian]

Man i dont play monk , but im actually interested on how theyll turn him. I dont really get the problems it felt fine to me .So ill just hope that you guys get your problems fixed .

[Shurrikhan]

Maybe have the combo ends of the MNK rotation to have positional points as opposed to every weaponskill. It worked pretty well when they revamped DRG and NIN. And those positional skills have higher potency and auto crit when done properly.

*Blink.*

*Blink, blink.*

NIN started off with no positionals outside of Trick Attack (back) and Sneak Attack (front). DRG's "revamp" was no more than moving the rear positional bonus from Impulse Drive to Chaos Thrust. It meant almost nothing compared to the general change that all weaponskills (not abilities, e.g. Trick Attack) would still activate combo progress and additional effects even if their positioning failed.

NIN and DRG have higher base potency only because they so much lower modifiers. Consider, Leaden Fist hits for over 800 effective potency.

Tornado Kick to be a "get back"

But it has you vault... away... from the target? I could see the opposite, but...

Rework [Greased Lightning] into something like the Beast Gauge, Where you can use Six Sided Star when the gauge gets to 50 and it's a very powerful attack.

Do we really need yet another Black Blood / Beast Gauge / Kenki / Ninki, though? If Monk remaining Monk is untenable, there are still plenty of other sensible and less copy-pasted options we could pursue.

Also give us a ranged attack for when we have to back off.

We have what amounts to and was given as ranged skill, though -- Meditation. It's just been increasingly ignored over each expansion since its implementation, much like Piercing Talon and Throwing Daggers since ARR. Wouldn't it be better to fix the melee-downtime skill we have than throw yet junk onto MNK's garbage-laden plate?

[SpeckledBurd]

Out of curiosity, a quick question for anyone/everyone:

What are some forms you wouldn't mind a reworked Greased Lightning taking? Moreover, what gameplay loops and general feel must it still accomplish?

(Same question for other resources like Forms, Stances, and Chakra, if you find those similarly pertinent.)

Assuming the speed and damage modifiers from Greased Lightning become 100% uptime as "Greased Lightning becomes a trait" would suggest, Monk will need a new gimmick entirely. Chakra alone isn't interesting enough to carry the job. As it currently is designed it's super slow to build, it's basically uninteractive, and you're hard pressed to find anyone who actually has anything good to say about it. There's a lot of things they could add, for example the Sabin/Zell blitz-like mechanics we spitballed earlier in this thread is something I wouldn't mind seeing. However that's similar enough to Ninjutsu or Dancing that it's probably worth doing something more distinct. I'd say anything that has an interplay with Monk's form based combos would be a smart call as far as a new mechanic goes.

Chakra as I mentioned, is currently pretty much despised by everyone and has been since people actually got to try Deep Meditation. No one likes the double layered crit RNG. Nobody likes Brotherhood's RNG or how it's composition dependent. Nobody likes that you can only use it while it's capped causing overflow. It absolutely needs to be changed so that it builds consistently, such as by being attached to Coeurl form or Raptor form hits, and you need to be able to use those skills well before capping on it is a possibility. Obviously this isn't a new suggestion, it's something we have provided as feedback for literal years now.

Form Based combos are legitimately the best part of Monk and removing them would basically knock over the last core pillar of the job's identity. Future development of the job should make use of Forms more if anything. The only tweak they need is that the job should default to Raptor Form if it isn't in another stance.

Stances are pointless as they're currently implemented and have historically always been pointless. I'm sure there's something they could come up with to make them something we actually engage with rather than something we set and forget. However the developers have put traits onto the fist stances which have failed to do that for two expansions now and instead came up with some of the most pointless traits in the game for them. I'd rather see the Fist Stances be deleted from the game rather than risk them making 4.0 Tackle Mastery for the third expansion in a row and patting themselves on the back about it even though they're still 3 buttons you never hit.

Other stuff:

-Monk's mobility is the worst out of the melee and the 5% modifier to movement speed on Fists of Wind is so inconsequential it doesn't help at all. Give Monk a backstep and a 5-10 yalm forward Dash similar to En Avant, both should have charges and neither should do any damage.

-The potency difference between a hit and a missed Leaden Bootshine is absurdly high, and it's absurdly punishing to miss it as a result. It's functionally the same as missing nearly every positional a Dragoon would have in 10 GCDs. Dragon Kick should be turned into a second self buff that affects all outgoing damage instead of just hypercharging a positional, or the damage boost needs to be positional independent.

[Shurrikhan]

@SpeckledBurd: Thank you for the detailed answers. To further look at two areas in particular, though...

1. Traditional Monk means of mobility vs. borrowed mobility options:

Monk's mobility is the worst out of the melee and the 5% modifier to movement speed on Fists of Wind is so inconsequential it doesn't help at all. Give Monk a backstep and a 5-10 yalm forward Dash similar to En Avant, both should have charges and neither should do any damage.

Could more traditional means also have sufficed? For instance,

• GL generates as much movement speed as attack speed, allowing us to better keep up with the added pace of positioning. (Total of 20% movement speed bonus when ramped up, up from 5%. Granted, this all would have to be changed with GL becoming "traits", but this is just for purpose of illustration for now.)
• Riddle of Wind returns as a zero-potency mobility tool, replacing Shoulder Tackle while Tackle is on cooldown, available once per Shoulder Tackle recharge period. (You can add to this backstep functionality when within melee range of a target, target-less dash functionality when no target is selected, etc., or just leave it equal to Shoulder Tackle as before.)

Would we still then need to copy Yaten and En Avant via separate buttons?

2. Leaden Fist

The potency difference between a hit and a missed Leaden Bootshine is absurdly high, and it's absurdly punishing to miss it as a result. It's functionally the same as missing nearly every positional a Dragoon would have in 10 GCDs. Dragon Kick should be turned into a second self buff that affects all outgoing damage instead of just hypercharging a positional, or the damage boost needs to be positional independent.

Would this essentially mimic the previous version of Dragon Kick, or would there be something new? Are there any particular implementations that would stand out to you as exciting, functional, and "Monk-like"?

[SpeckledBurd]

Could more traditional means also have sufficed? For instance,

• GL generates as much movement speed as attack speed, allowing us to better keep up with the added pace of positioning. (Total of 20% movement speed bonus when ramped up, up from 5%. Granted, this all would have to be changed with GL becoming "traits", but this is just for purpose of illustration for now.)
• Riddle of Wind returns as a zero-potency mobility tool, replacing Shoulder Tackle while Tackle is on cooldown, available once per Shoulder Tackle recharge period. (You can add to this backstep functionality when within melee range of a target, target-less dash functionality when no target is selected, etc., or just leave it equal to Shoulder Tackle as before.)

Would we still then need to copy Yaten and En Avant via separate buttons?

Boosting Monk's native movement speed further as an alternative to having better movement actions has a couple of problems. The biggest one is that it's trying to compete against skills that provide what amounts to instant movement with non-instant movement. If it's sufficient then Monk will fundamentally be able to Shukuchi constantly, but if it's insufficient then Monk still has the worst mobility of the Melee. The other problem is that moving at higher speeds makes positioning for certain more precise mechanics more difficult than necessary.

Riddle of Wind returning as a zero potency mobility tool is a better idea, but I don't see them doing that since they seem to have converted that concept into Charges. Really the best change they could make to Shoulder Tackle would be to revert it to how it worked in ARR by giving it a 10-yalm minimum range from the boss rather than it being a skill you have to hammer on cooldown (with them moving the potency to a new skill or just bringing back Steel Peak at a different potency and a 30 second cooldown). I frankly don't see a reason why there needs to be an incentive to use your gap-closer as DPS cooldown on Monk at least.

I also disagree that giving Monk a mobility tool identical to another job is a problem at all. Why? Well every "Normal" movement option is already implemented in some form on another job. Ninja already has a ground targeted teleport, Samurai has a backstep relative to an enemy, Dragoon has the backstep based on character orientation, and Dancer has forward dashes based on character orientation. That's basically the entirety of movement skills that can exist without the movement condition being just pointlessly unconventional. You could do something different but at that point you'd be sacrificing practicality for the sake of Monk having a skill that does something different, like having a 10 Yalm Back Step to the right. You aren't even gaining flavor at that point.

Frankly En Avant is the prime candidate for a skill to "copy" to Monk, because it's from a separate role entirely, on a Job whose playstyle is entirely distinct to Monk. Further, Monk having a forward dash fits well with an aggressive Martial Arts type, it doesn't matter that it already existing on an extremely different job shouldn't bar Monk from getting an equivalent.

Would this essentially mimic the previous version of Dragon Kick, or would there be something new? Are there any particular implementations that would stand out to you as exciting, functional, and "Monk-like"?

More or less. It could be something like a 5-10% boost to Crit or Direct Hit instead of it just being a second 10% damage up on the Monk to avoid redundancy with Twin Snakes.

[Shurrikhan]

If it's sufficient then Monk will fundamentally be able to Shukuchi constantly, but if it's insufficient then Monk still has the worst mobility of the Melee.

Let's keep in mind though that the passive mobility bonus wouldn't have to be your only means of mobility. Similarly, if passive, but not necessarily native, the duration could easily be limited; it could instead, say, be applied only after using "Wind-based" skills, such as Tackle, Tornado Kick, or after any damaging ability at all, etc.

Riddle of Wind returning as a zero potency mobility tool is a better idea, but I don't see them doing that since they seem to have converted that concept into Charges.

That's fair, but my issue with merely providing Charges (with no further ICD) to a potency skill is that, well, it's resultantly more about damage than mobility. Its mobility component is just that bit that most people look back at longingly after they've already used it to maximize DPS and have since screwed up.

In other words, the added Charge is sold as mobility when in practice it just adds a thin extra layer to damage-maximization.

It could be something like a 5-10% boost to Crit or Direct Hit instead of it just being a second 10% damage up on the Monk to avoid redundancy with Twin Snakes.

I get the desire not to merely have the same buff by two names (although that was entirely common when one was target-specific and the other was not), but wouldn't giving the same effect via Crit/DHit end up compounding its dependence on compositions, in ways we wanted to avoid (e.g. by rehauling Chakra and revising or delimiting Brotherhood)?
Sorry if I'm nitpicking what was meant only as a spitball.

[xxvaynxx]

All these passionate monk's, really hope they do the job justice with the revamp.
I want my first job I ever played and mained to be fun again.
Mnk has been f**ked over with new abilities way too much.
And almost nothing new to play with because its always situational or some boring buff or GL management.

[Kahnom]

Just thought without thinking much, what if Shoulder Tackle changes into no potency deals, no charge but 15 sec cooldowns.
Will it more useful than the current one ?

[Shurrikhan]

Just thought without thinking much, what if Shoulder Tackle changes into no potency deals, no charge but 15 sec cooldowns.
Will it more useful than the current one ?

Given the 200 ppm elsewhere, almost certainly. Any pure mobility option will offer more mobility than a damage-mobility tool that's mostly constrained by its damage optimization. That said, it also then removes some forethought or sense of risk, so it's not as if it's a free improvement to gameplay, only to capabilities/ease (and that's assuming, again, that you get the potency elsewhere to compensate for it).

[Sqwall]

All these passionate monk's, really hope they do the job justice with the revamp.
And almost nothing new to play with because its always situational or some boring buff or GL management.

I personally hope they do away with the GL ramp up into gaining 3/4 GL. With the changes made to Form Shift and Perfect Balance I hope to see something like a hybrid of warrior/nin gameplay.

Currently:Form Shift just changes your form and resets the timer....that's it. We may see something akin to huton/Storm Eye instead. Finishing a combo starts/resets it(like armor crush), using form shift resets it.

Currently: Perfect Balance is essentially Inner Release on 90 sec CD for a burst phase that only works with form combos. I do find myself using this almost every trash pack to spam Rockbreaker + ROF + Brotherhood. Very powerful and constantly edge close to pulling hate off the tank if they aren't AOEing enough. Outside of my initial opener for GL gains, this is my new Inner Release.

Future: Personally, GL in it's current form is gone and change to something like Beast Gauge...(I hope) The GL per stack buff turned into a straight static buff that we have at all times without the punishing side affects of losing it. Essentially 1-80 we get a steady increase to speed/potency passively. The new "GL gauge" builds up by finishing combos with a max 100 points. Perfect Balance and TK would use 50 each. This would offer so much choice(personally) and open the job up to so many strategies. Do I wanna unload Perfect Balance for crazy AOE? or drop 2 tornado kicks?

Also this prevents spamming Perfect Balance as you need to FINISH a combo to gain GL resources. I have thought this through a lot.

Future: Chackra is "fine" since I use it quite a lot, but the RNG blows. Currently use SSS > Forbidden > Elixir Field/Shoulder tackle. I think SSS should be turned into a chackra gain skill with a small cooldown timer and made into a oGCD, and remove the slow down effect. This would be something I can weave to help supplement my chackra gains. If the RNG is so bad just pop SSS. (Kind of like Sleeve Draw)

Future: That leaves TK and this is where I feel something akin to beast gauge or nenki would shine. Building up to a double tornado kick + riddle of fire! Sounds...awesome honestly! How we gain these would be dependent on doing our combos effectively and using perfect balance won't work as you need to finish your combos.

Future: And lastly...stances. Fists of Wind +5% Crit Buff, Fists of Fire +5% damage Buff, Fist of Earth +5% reduced damage. Stances has always been a sore subject all the way back to ARR...they just always took a back seat until Stormblood offered the whole riddle mess, and then was undone.

No matter how you look at it...Monk really does need a complete rework.