Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Shurrikhan]

Out of curiosity, a quick question for anyone/everyone:

What are some forms you wouldn't mind a reworked Greased Lightning taking? Moreover, what gameplay loops and general feel must it still accomplish?

(Same question for other resources like Forms, Stances, and Chakra, if you find those similarly pertinent.)

[reyre]

Out of curiosity, a quick question for anyone/everyone:

What are some forms you wouldn't mind a reworked Greased Lightning taking? Moreover, what gameplay loops and general feel must it still accomplish?

(Same question for other resources like Forms, Stances, and Chakra, if you find those similarly pertinent.)

Thing is i actually like current MNK, let me be specific. I like the core of the class, doing positionals, having a priority system in the combo (having the option of a branching combo even if it is A or B path), building up to somenthing meaningful i.e GL.

That makes the class actually fun for me, it keeps you on your toes unlike NIN or DRG hell even SAM and their very static, boring rotations, that provide almost no enjoyment or skill celing (FOR ME!!) so after a week playing those classes i just cant care enough. (Perhaps i am a bit salty because of SAM taking the place of the selfish DPS after yoshi said that making a selfish DPS was very hard)

Unlike sqwall, (or what it seems that his point is leading to) i dont want MNK to play like any of those 3 melee in an attempt to make it "flow" it will kill the game for me honestly. (And it would seem that sqwall likes the aesthetics of MNK not the gameplay at is core. Like liking BLM for the cool explosions and then saying he hates the shifting from umbral to astral or the 15 sec timer as an example. But i digress)

However it would be disingenuous to say that the class is okay. Its pretty far from it. I would like postionals to feel meaningful, not just "LOL if its not leadenfist who cares if i miss it". That alone would provide a high skill celing. Remove stances. To this date SE has not figured a way to do stances properly in this game, just make them a trait.

Kill Brotherhood, this is the single most cancerous skill for MNK. It forces MNK into very specific party compositions and it affects the rotation not based on the player actions but based on OTHER PLAYERS RNG (What the hell SE?). Allow for chakra control and overflow, this is highly linked to the previous one.

Make SsS/TK part of the rotation, how? I have no clue. Could be like xenoglosy? Could be like sharpfang? Who knows, i do know however that the current iteration of SsS and TK is pointless. Put more oGCDs.

Outside of that (and only because i have high ping) make PB be 11 seconds, that simple change would almost certantly kill 90% of high ping complains. (I mean if the gameplay remains somewhat similar to what it is now. If it changes this is a absurd request)

GL never bothered me and i am kind of surprised that people have so many issues keeping it up or are so annoyed because button spamming, but hey you do you guys.

If i have to say, i would love if the fast paced combat remained, i love that about MNK and the flexibility it has with is forms/combo system.

PS. Bring back ToD and Howling fist.... Oh! and remove Enlightment from chakra.

[Sqwall]

Unlike sqwall, (or what it seems that his point is leading to) i dont want MNK to play like any of those 3 melee in an attempt to make it "flow" it will kill the game for me honestly. (And it would seem that sqwall likes the aesthetics of MNK not the gameplay at is core. Like liking BLM for the cool explosions and then saying he hates the shifting from umbral to astral or the 15 sec timer as an example. But i digress)

Not really the case with me. I have mentioned quite often that I started monk in ARR, and been with the "lack of evolution" ever since. I don't mind GL when everything is clicking along, the MT isn't moving the boss, I have melee DPS in the party, yeah GL is stupid easy to keep up now. But that's about it really. I can't use TK, anataman is borderline useless, SSS is weak and unnecessary, WOW this is just a broken record...seriously.

I think the issue here is that idea behind the design flaws of monk are trying SOOO hard to be different, but fail to meet expectations for what I think I can speak for everyone "Have missed the mark". SE can't design a class for 1 out of 20million subs and be ok with this. I understand you like the class in how it plays now, but for everyone else that want's to keep playing it or pick it up it has a steep learning curve. I don't think it's hard to update monk to keep the same playstyle. Keeping the speed, the positional's, the quick game play. I have never said take all that away....I don't want any of that to change. Just give me a REASON to use TK, SSS, Anatman, Brotherhood. These are the last 30 levels of skills. I'm not blind to this at all and my eyes are wide open.

I try to put myself in other peoples shoes and GIVE the benefit of the doubt. Seriously think about how monk plays now from 1-50....it's HORRIBLE. I even try to put myself in the shoes of others that think monk is fine the way it is, AND try to change my rotation or playstyle. But the annoying issues keep rearing their ugly heads.

The truth is monk is not fine....and hasn't been for a LONG time. Otherwise SE would not be taking steps to change it completely. I think it's a disservice to the class if I DIDN'T voice my opinions since I think it is one of the most demanding classes to play.

Like I have said numerous times. Something has to give! And it's just not me saying this, or a select few. It's A LOT of individuals mentioning this, i'm just more vocal about it because like I keep saying "I identify with Monk" I'm not saying this for fun or to turn my nose up to other DPS classes. It's simply true that the class does NOT play well for some. I find playing Monk exhausting due to it's break neck nature. This doesn't have to be the case.

I can't be the ONLY one that thinks this.

[reyre]

...

No, i dont like how the class plays now, that is literally not what i wrote.

Is nice to see that you are making the same points that i did. It makes me wonder why did you wrote this because you are adding nothing much, then again you want your voice to be heard so it makes sense that you are repeating over and over again the same thing.

[SpeckledBurd]

Out of curiosity, a quick question for anyone/everyone:

What are some forms you wouldn't mind a reworked Greased Lightning taking? Moreover, what gameplay loops and general feel must it still accomplish?

(Same question for other resources like Forms, Stances, and Chakra, if you find those similarly pertinent.)

Assuming the speed and damage modifiers from Greased Lightning become 100% uptime as "Greased Lightning becomes a trait" would suggest, Monk will need a new gimmick entirely. Chakra alone isn't interesting enough to carry the job. As it currently is designed it's super slow to build, it's basically uninteractive, and you're hard pressed to find anyone who actually has anything good to say about it. There's a lot of things they could add, for example the Sabin/Zell blitz-like mechanics we spitballed earlier in this thread is something I wouldn't mind seeing. However that's similar enough to Ninjutsu or Dancing that it's probably worth doing something more distinct. I'd say anything that has an interplay with Monk's form based combos would be a smart call as far as a new mechanic goes.

Chakra as I mentioned, is currently pretty much despised by everyone and has been since people actually got to try Deep Meditation. No one likes the double layered crit RNG. Nobody likes Brotherhood's RNG or how it's composition dependent. Nobody likes that you can only use it while it's capped causing overflow. It absolutely needs to be changed so that it builds consistently, such as by being attached to Coeurl form or Raptor form hits, and you need to be able to use those skills well before capping on it is a possibility. Obviously this isn't a new suggestion, it's something we have provided as feedback for literal years now.

Form Based combos are legitimately the best part of Monk and removing them would basically knock over the last core pillar of the job's identity. Future development of the job should make use of Forms more if anything. The only tweak they need is that the job should default to Raptor Form if it isn't in another stance.

Stances are pointless as they're currently implemented and have historically always been pointless. I'm sure there's something they could come up with to make them something we actually engage with rather than something we set and forget. However the developers have put traits onto the fist stances which have failed to do that for two expansions now and instead came up with some of the most pointless traits in the game for them. I'd rather see the Fist Stances be deleted from the game rather than risk them making 4.0 Tackle Mastery for the third expansion in a row and patting themselves on the back about it even though they're still 3 buttons you never hit.

Other stuff:

-Monk's mobility is the worst out of the melee and the 5% modifier to movement speed on Fists of Wind is so inconsequential it doesn't help at all. Give Monk a backstep and a 5-10 yalm forward Dash similar to En Avant, both should have charges and neither should do any damage.

-The potency difference between a hit and a missed Leaden Bootshine is absurdly high, and it's absurdly punishing to miss it as a result. It's functionally the same as missing nearly every positional a Dragoon would have in 10 GCDs. Dragon Kick should be turned into a second self buff that affects all outgoing damage instead of just hypercharging a positional, or the damage boost needs to be positional independent.

[Shurrikhan]

@SpeckledBurd: Thank you for the detailed answers. To further look at two areas in particular, though...

1. Traditional Monk means of mobility vs. borrowed mobility options:

Monk's mobility is the worst out of the melee and the 5% modifier to movement speed on Fists of Wind is so inconsequential it doesn't help at all. Give Monk a backstep and a 5-10 yalm forward Dash similar to En Avant, both should have charges and neither should do any damage.

Could more traditional means also have sufficed? For instance,

• GL generates as much movement speed as attack speed, allowing us to better keep up with the added pace of positioning. (Total of 20% movement speed bonus when ramped up, up from 5%. Granted, this all would have to be changed with GL becoming "traits", but this is just for purpose of illustration for now.)
• Riddle of Wind returns as a zero-potency mobility tool, replacing Shoulder Tackle while Tackle is on cooldown, available once per Shoulder Tackle recharge period. (You can add to this backstep functionality when within melee range of a target, target-less dash functionality when no target is selected, etc., or just leave it equal to Shoulder Tackle as before.)

Would we still then need to copy Yaten and En Avant via separate buttons?

2. Leaden Fist

The potency difference between a hit and a missed Leaden Bootshine is absurdly high, and it's absurdly punishing to miss it as a result. It's functionally the same as missing nearly every positional a Dragoon would have in 10 GCDs. Dragon Kick should be turned into a second self buff that affects all outgoing damage instead of just hypercharging a positional, or the damage boost needs to be positional independent.

Would this essentially mimic the previous version of Dragon Kick, or would there be something new? Are there any particular implementations that would stand out to you as exciting, functional, and "Monk-like"?

[SpeckledBurd]

Could more traditional means also have sufficed? For instance,

• GL generates as much movement speed as attack speed, allowing us to better keep up with the added pace of positioning. (Total of 20% movement speed bonus when ramped up, up from 5%. Granted, this all would have to be changed with GL becoming "traits", but this is just for purpose of illustration for now.)
• Riddle of Wind returns as a zero-potency mobility tool, replacing Shoulder Tackle while Tackle is on cooldown, available once per Shoulder Tackle recharge period. (You can add to this backstep functionality when within melee range of a target, target-less dash functionality when no target is selected, etc., or just leave it equal to Shoulder Tackle as before.)

Would we still then need to copy Yaten and En Avant via separate buttons?

Boosting Monk's native movement speed further as an alternative to having better movement actions has a couple of problems. The biggest one is that it's trying to compete against skills that provide what amounts to instant movement with non-instant movement. If it's sufficient then Monk will fundamentally be able to Shukuchi constantly, but if it's insufficient then Monk still has the worst mobility of the Melee. The other problem is that moving at higher speeds makes positioning for certain more precise mechanics more difficult than necessary.

Riddle of Wind returning as a zero potency mobility tool is a better idea, but I don't see them doing that since they seem to have converted that concept into Charges. Really the best change they could make to Shoulder Tackle would be to revert it to how it worked in ARR by giving it a 10-yalm minimum range from the boss rather than it being a skill you have to hammer on cooldown (with them moving the potency to a new skill or just bringing back Steel Peak at a different potency and a 30 second cooldown). I frankly don't see a reason why there needs to be an incentive to use your gap-closer as DPS cooldown on Monk at least.

I also disagree that giving Monk a mobility tool identical to another job is a problem at all. Why? Well every "Normal" movement option is already implemented in some form on another job. Ninja already has a ground targeted teleport, Samurai has a backstep relative to an enemy, Dragoon has the backstep based on character orientation, and Dancer has forward dashes based on character orientation. That's basically the entirety of movement skills that can exist without the movement condition being just pointlessly unconventional. You could do something different but at that point you'd be sacrificing practicality for the sake of Monk having a skill that does something different, like having a 10 Yalm Back Step to the right. You aren't even gaining flavor at that point.

Frankly En Avant is the prime candidate for a skill to "copy" to Monk, because it's from a separate role entirely, on a Job whose playstyle is entirely distinct to Monk. Further, Monk having a forward dash fits well with an aggressive Martial Arts type, it doesn't matter that it already existing on an extremely different job shouldn't bar Monk from getting an equivalent.

Would this essentially mimic the previous version of Dragon Kick, or would there be something new? Are there any particular implementations that would stand out to you as exciting, functional, and "Monk-like"?

More or less. It could be something like a 5-10% boost to Crit or Direct Hit instead of it just being a second 10% damage up on the Monk to avoid redundancy with Twin Snakes.

[Shurrikhan]

If it's sufficient then Monk will fundamentally be able to Shukuchi constantly, but if it's insufficient then Monk still has the worst mobility of the Melee.

Let's keep in mind though that the passive mobility bonus wouldn't have to be your only means of mobility. Similarly, if passive, but not necessarily native, the duration could easily be limited; it could instead, say, be applied only after using "Wind-based" skills, such as Tackle, Tornado Kick, or after any damaging ability at all, etc.

Riddle of Wind returning as a zero potency mobility tool is a better idea, but I don't see them doing that since they seem to have converted that concept into Charges.

That's fair, but my issue with merely providing Charges (with no further ICD) to a potency skill is that, well, it's resultantly more about damage than mobility. Its mobility component is just that bit that most people look back at longingly after they've already used it to maximize DPS and have since screwed up.

In other words, the added Charge is sold as mobility when in practice it just adds a thin extra layer to damage-maximization.

It could be something like a 5-10% boost to Crit or Direct Hit instead of it just being a second 10% damage up on the Monk to avoid redundancy with Twin Snakes.

I get the desire not to merely have the same buff by two names (although that was entirely common when one was target-specific and the other was not), but wouldn't giving the same effect via Crit/DHit end up compounding its dependence on compositions, in ways we wanted to avoid (e.g. by rehauling Chakra and revising or delimiting Brotherhood)?
Sorry if I'm nitpicking what was meant only as a spitball.

[SpeckledBurd]

Edit: Something I just remembered, but Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood have literally no reason to be separate buttons. There's never a point where you want to use one and not the other.

Let's keep in mind though that the passive mobility bonus wouldn't have to be your only means of mobility. Similarly, if passive, but not necessarily native, the duration could easily be limited; it could instead, say, be applied only after using "Wind-based" skills, such as Tackle, Tornado Kick, or after any damaging ability at all, etc.

Yeah fair, it's easy to lose track of the broader scope when talking on a point by point basis. However I still don't think higher native movement speed will matter, nor will an additional sprint, when directly competing against skills that provide instantaneous movement across long distances.

That's fair, but my issue with merely providing Charges (with no further ICD) to a potency skill is that, well, it's resultantly more about damage than mobility. Its mobility component is just that bit that most people look back at longingly after they've already used it to maximize DPS and have since screwed up.

In other words, the added Charge is sold as mobility when in practice it just adds a thin extra layer to damage-maximization.

That's the current problem with Shoulder Tackle yes. My point was that I don't think the developers will bring back Riddle of Wind as a free tackle because that concept seems to have formed the foundation for charges on gap closers (and probably charges on actions in general).

I get the desire not to merely have the same buff by two names (although that was entirely common when one was target-specific and the other was not), but wouldn't giving the same effect via Crit/DHit end up compounding its dependence on compositions, in ways we wanted to avoid (e.g. by rehauling Chakra and revising or delimiting Brotherhood)?
Sorry if I'm nitpicking what was meant only as a spitball.

It shouldn't as long as Chakra is reubilt to not be connected to crit. At that point it just means Monk will crit 5% more than other jobs. What made previous Bard so attached to the Dragoon on top of Piercing was Battle Litany improving the proc rate of River of Blood in HW and Repertoire in SB. Monk having Internal Release in HW didn't make that dependence, it was having an additional resource that was contingent upon landing crits, as long as that interaction is gone a crit buff to the self is independent to the rest of the party.

[Sqwall]

It shouldn't as long as Chakra is reubilt to not be connected to crit. At that point it just means Monk will crit 5% more than other jobs. What made previous Bard so attached to the Dragoon on top of Piercing was Battle Litany improving the proc rate of River of Blood in HW and Repertoire in SB. Monk having Internal Release in HW didn't make that dependence, it was having an additional resource that was contingent upon landing crits, as long as that interaction is gone a crit buff to the self is independent to the rest of the party.

I agree with this as if we are to no longer have Internal Release and it's never coming back, then we need have something that isn't dependent on the whole party comp being specific. The RNG would be great IF the job complimented it fairly. We should not have to use food and gear specific stats/melds for us to get MEH chakra gains. Internal Release was so nice that I could pop it when I needed chackra fast before my riddle of fire came up. Monk needs passive crit chance buff or a skill to increase it in larger doses.

I have been in a Puppets Bunker run where I was lucky enough to be in a party of ALL monks. WOW...the comp is soooo amazing, damn near broken as we had a brotherhood/ROF buff running nearly constantly. So many forbidden's all over the place! But the next time I ran it...all casters. Brotherhood was so gimp I virtually got 2 chackra with each round of brotherhood. This can't be intentional to have 2 very huge differences in damage just with party comp.