Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Shurrikhan]

If we want Monk to play like the other melee DPS

That's just it, though. I don't want it to play like the other melee DPS, save in that two of the other melee DPS are just straight up more polished than it. I want MNK have to least the quality that SAM and DRG enjoy, but I don't want it to play like anything but Monk.

I already lost any enjoyable rotation from Ninja and only just got back SAM with the Higakure revisions. I don't want to lose another interesting DPS to the core-mechanics-sacrificing NIN/MCH-style "rehauls". (That's not to say that those rehauls were outright bad, only that they had zero need to sacrifice most of the things they ultimately gutted, save that Ammo itself existed as a mechanic, alongside skills that could "waste" ammo -- which those unable to optimize didn't like.)

Take Shield Swipe by way of example. Not crying over the lack of a half-assed implementation of a mechanic (having a flexible reserve skill that aided allied positioning or stack mechanics, could at least postpone spike damage, and yet wouldn't get in the way of other forms of CC) doesn't mean people wouldn't like that mechanic full-stop. It just means it never fully saw the light of day and no one missed what they'd only ever seen through narrow slits in a garbage heap.

DRK, WAR, MCH, AST, PLD, BRD are all good examples about SE just gutting jobs to make them "work".

And most of them have been horribly controversial precisely because they were gutted more than was needed to make them work. DRK did not need to become more nearly a "WAR-clone" to be a competitive choice. AST did not need to lose its time-space mechanics just to be balanceable. Arguably, it just needed to feel less pidgeon-holed into "pOp aLL thE tHinGs iN tHe CelOpp wIndoW", predominantly a playflow issue.

...On the other hand, PLD's only really lost Bulwark, which was far from pivotal. It hasn't been gutted. [I take this back. See edit.]

And Bard? That one's changes are harder to define. While I personally hugely regret the removal of actual song mechanics, and would have preferred core systems revisions instead, most would likely say little has actually been taken away from the core experience (how it rotates and Bard's place in optimal play). The devs just went back to trying--and rarely if ever quite succeeding--to balance physical ranged around their hypermobility and, with StB, ease of play, rather than reining that hypermobility back in. At this point I just regret that they won't consistently provide ways for Phys. Ranged to increase raid damage through mobility mechanics (e.g. letting them bait stuff for melee in E7S, as to spare melee those 2 GCDs of uptime) and therefore make PhyRanged swing between being either overpowered or underpowered.

Each and every single job should "feel" smooth and engaging to play in their own way

And that's going to be the crucial thing. The reason I get cynical is because we've been told, implicitly if not explicitly, that the two were mutually exclusive far more often than they actually have been.

Because of that, I'd rather see them try harder to maintain uniqueness, even if it takes longer to get the most intuitive, most effective design, than gut large portions and replace them only with something "smooth" but empty. That assumes, though, that the devs are capable of thinking about those core mechanics in terms of their gameplay loops and player decisions to be made accordingly, rather than just the surface level mechanic or code.


EDIT (due to daily post cap):

Paladin has changed greatly in the way that it used to gain oath with blocking, to just gaining oath with auto attacks.

Ahh, I see. You're totally right in that regard; I just saw it as a Role-wide change rather than a Paladin specific one. I should have guessed you may have meant that, though, given that you also included WAR and DRK. Completely my bad. And, yes, I would likewise have preferred to see both Oaths remain, just without so high a swap-cost. For instance, if Shield Oath generated a brief mitigation window or absorption value or Sword Oath generated a brief, compensatory period of increased Attack Speed, or if they were both turned into oGCDs with the Oath Gauge itself becoming more prevalent, I would have loved that. As I spent 95+% of my boss-time in Sword Oath and 85+% of AoE pulls in Shield, the mechanic had very little impact on me in StB, and thus little from its implementation was lost in ShB, but I would have loved to see it become more impactful, rather than less, through finally getting a proper implementation. And gods yes, the Shield Oath - Wings synergy was so fun.

All you have said below, save for a couple nit-picks, I'm right there with you on. Heck, I'd probably go further. I mean, I've been asking to be able to use my shield as more of a paired weapon, and for more reason to stance-dance (outside of mere eHP concerns) since ARR, so...

[Sqwall]

...On the other hand, PLD's only really lost Bulwark, which was far from pivotal. It hasn't been gutted.

ehhh this is a hard pass. Paladin has changed greatly in the way that it used to gain oath with blocking, to just gaining oath with auto attacks. And this deserves it's own thread, but what the heck.

Back in HW and StB you had a choice between shield and sword oath. Shield granted oath with blocking, and sword with auto attacks. I sorely MISS shield oath gaining oath from blocking.

Losing Bulwark was like Warrior losing Infuriate by comparison.

I could use bulwark or wings to just fill up my gauge when I needed more oath, and the more mobs around me the more oath I gained for MP regen for flash/clemancy/holy spirit out of sheltron spam. You could get 3-4 shell-trons in a row for fast MP regen. Oath was needed to gain MP back faster for your burst phase window with requisite and blocking facilitated that.

Now oath is merely relegated to 3 skills. Sheltron, Intervention, and Cover. Don't get me wrong I love the way shelltron works now, but I would really like to have something more useful to spend my oath on. As it gains at a static rate now...which is slow to boot. Shadowbringers gutted the way Block and Parry work as mitigation. Paladin is built around blocking, and now we have to rely on eHP. Remember when Paladin had 2 shield choices. Block chance and Block Strength? I do....and block chance was king for me as that offered more oath to burn. Now it's just even across the board for shields.

I like the way paladin plays now, but I kind of miss the meaningful ways you could gain oath in HW and StB. Doesn't mean paladin is trash by a long shot! (one of the best tanks imo) Hopefully we get a little more of that block integration back in the next expansion.

I would like to see something like a skill that once used charges oath when you block for 10 sec. or maybe when each party member's shield falls of or breaks you get 5 oath per.