Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[gumas]

^pretty much, 5.3 is basically monk emergency band aid lol, the real deal is at 5.4 later.

btw do we know when 5.4 will come out? knowing their usual schedule, usually after a big patch like 5.3 it should take them months for 5.4, so i guess... end of year?

[Sqwall]

Just a quick update, now that the LL digest is out, we now know that the Form Shift change is going to make it refresh GL no matter what form, rather than skipping Opo-Opo altogether (ala BLM's Umbral Soul) as the earlier translation would have us believe. Which is good enough for me, as it's what I and a lot of other people have been asking for them to do anyway. So... RIP SSS I guess, made just a tad bit more useless until 5.4 lol.

Could you link the page where this is? If this is going to happen then I wonder how this will work with Perfect Balance as it was also purposed to be fixed in 5.3. The patch notes can't come soon enough for us Monk mains. Your correct that SSS would be taken off the hot bar if this is true. Then that would be two capstone abilities rendered utterly useless until 5.4. With the change to form shift this is going to really shake things up with the GL being traited out for future patches. Is this the great fix? Just let Form Shift reset the timer without....shifting forms? Are they going to rename it to?

I am going to bring up another argument as well. Target dummies help you build your optimal rotation, but for monk it's freaking useless. How can I weave my oGCD's when 2 of them are behind and RNG wall? Use brotherhood? Yeah I might get 3 chackra during the timer. Everyone says monk is selfish DPS, but I argue that it is 100% dependent on a party to hit it's high numbers. So on a target dummy monk is putting out the minimal requirements, in a party is shines more then any other job/class maybe save for DRG or DNC. But those to job/classes shine great on their own without a party.

If your post is correct then that would be 1 piece of the puzzle, but we still need 2 more. 1) RNG crit/chackra and 2) will GL be changed to trait in 5.4 reworking the WHOLE job. Fix #1 and just give us back Internal Release. I seriously don't know why you took it away. #2 is opening Pandora's box really, and once it's open we may not like it all. Or they actually put some thought into it this time and realize they have 1 shot to get it right. If they get it wrong Monk is dead and nobody will play it.

[SpeckledBurd]

Could you link the page where this is? If this is going to happen then I wonder how this will work with Perfect Balance as it was also purposed to be fixed in 5.3. The patch notes can't come soon enough for us Monk mains. Your correct that SSS would be taken off the hot bar if this is true. Then that would be two capstone abilities rendered utterly useless until 5.4. With the change to form shift this is going to really shake things up with the GL being traited out for future patches. Is this the great fix? Just let Form Shift reset the timer without....shifting forms? Are they going to rename it to?

I am going to bring up another argument as well. Target dummies help you build your optimal rotation, but for monk it's freaking useless. How can I weave my oGCD's when 2 of them are behind and RNG wall? Use brotherhood? Yeah I might get 3 chackra during the timer. Everyone says monk is selfish DPS, but I argue that it is 100% dependent on a party to hit it's high numbers. So on a target dummy monk is putting out the minimal requirements, in a party is shines more then any other job/class maybe save for DRG or DNC. But those to job/classes shine great on their own without a party.

If your post is correct then that would be 1 piece of the puzzle, but we still need 2 more. 1) RNG crit/chackra and 2) will GL be changed to trait in 5.4 reworking the WHOLE job. Fix #1 and just give us back Internal Release. I seriously don't know why you took it away. #2 is opening Pandora's box really, and once it's open we may not like it all. Or they actually put some thought into it this time and realize they have 1 shot to get it right. If they get it wrong Monk is dead and nobody will play it.

Here.

6SS won't be dead, it'll still be useful for disengages since it lets you double dip your GCD. However it may end up getting changed in 5.4 anyway since the devs seemed to internally think of it as a way to refresh stacks rather than a downtime/disengage tool. Presumably Form Shift will still advance your form to the next one, but it will also refresh your stacks with every hit.

The skill that's really getting coffin'd here is Anatman. Fight Design rarely lets you build stacks because of how much they love making you either move during transitions or watch a minute long anime cutscene and then give you zero time before the boss is targetable after the fact. Perfect Balance's shortened recast is basically ripping the recovery aspect out from beneath Anatman (not that it was good for that either) and Form Shift already took the upkeep aspect, now it'll do it even better. All that's left for Anatman now is the opener that relies on counting server ticks.

[reyre]

Just a quick update, now that the LL digest is out, we now know that the Form Shift change is going to make it refresh GL no matter what form, rather than skipping Opo-Opo altogether (ala BLM's Umbral Soul) as the earlier translation would have us believe. Which is good enough for me, as it's what I and a lot of other people have been asking for them to do anyway. So... RIP SSS I guess, made just a tad bit more useless until 5.4 lol.

Not going to lie, those changes kind of make me sad. One hand form shift will still be spammed, just not 3 times every 10 seconds in DNGs which is cool i guess, it will be better for some transitions....kind of. I honestly cant think of any fight in current content that actually forces a long transition (maybe e8s but even then you kind of have a reopener so...) but either way is a positive-ish change.

Now the PB change is kind of pointless. It will make MNK hit harder, since you know Leaden Fist spam will be even more prevalent than before and maybe we can actually line it up with RoF and BH with no forced delays in oGCD rotation, on the other hand its making leaden fist even more prevalent than before in the MNKs rotation which is a problem on its own, its a bigger problem if you have high ping/low frame rate. Hopefully this PB change will come with some other adjustments to other skills, namely Tornado Kick, if not then this PB change kind of makes things worse. One the main reasons to have a short recast on PB was to use the TK Rotation in tandem with RoW, buuut since we dont have the cool side effect of RoW, its just more burst DMG.

I would rather have a potency buff to other skills (which honestly can still happen).

If nothing else i predict that MNK dmg will be too high and leaden fist will be nerfed to the ground.

[Sqwall]

Not going to lie, those changes kind of make me sad. One hand form shift will still be spammed, just not 3 times every 10 seconds in DNGs which is cool i guess, it will be better for some transitions....kind of. I honestly cant think of any fight in current content that actually forces a long transition (maybe e8s but even then you kind of have a reopener so...) but either way is a positive-ish change.

Now the PB change is kind of pointless. It will make MNK hit harder, since you know Leaden Fist spam will be even more prevalent than before and maybe we can actually line it up with RoF and BH with no forced delays in oGCD rotation, on the other hand its making leaden fist even more prevalent than before in the MNKs rotation which is a problem on its own, its a bigger problem if you have high ping/low frame rate. Hopefully this PB change will come with some other adjustments to other skills, namely Tornado Kick, if not then this PB change kind of makes things worse. One the main reasons to have a short recast on PB was to use the TK Rotation in tandem with RoW, buuut since we dont have the cool side effect of RoW, its just more burst DMG.

I would rather have a potency buff to other skills (which honestly can still happen).

If nothing else i predict that MNK dmg will be too high and leaden fist will be nerfed to the ground.

This might be first time I agree with you! After reading the futher LL about monk I agree reducing the CD on perfect balance will just turn Monk into a hybrid Fell Cleave. And not a fun one! This is great for transitions where PB will be up most of the time. E8S is good example and copied factor with the robot carry transitions (I always lose my stacks).

I think your right about this being the wrong direction for PB, and I have always felt it needed a straight full 3 stack of GL, but make Tornado Kick only use 3 stacks instead of everything.

Trait all stances to passive buffs: FoW allows 4th GL, FoF +5% damage buff, FoE +3% crit chance. Then you never fully lose all your stacks with TK, then this would essentially help you weave TK into your rotation. Even more so during your RoF, BH burst phase. SSS should be moved to a oGCD and grant 1 GL. Adjust potentcy until even with NIN or SAM. done

[Sqwall]

Here.

6SS won't be dead, it'll still be useful for disengages since it lets you double dip your GCD. However it may end up getting changed in 5.4 anyway since the devs seemed to internally think of it as a way to refresh stacks rather than a downtime/disengage tool. Presumably Form Shift will still advance your form to the next one, but it will also refresh your stacks with every hit.

The skill that's really getting coffin'd here is Anatman. Fight Design rarely lets you build stacks because of how much they love making you either move during transitions or watch a minute long anime cutscene and then give you zero time before the boss is targetable after the fact. Perfect Balance's shortened recast is basically ripping the recovery aspect out from beneath Anatman (not that it was good for that either) and Form Shift already took the upkeep aspect, now it'll do it even better. All that's left for Anatman now is the opener that relies on counting server ticks.

Yes it looks like RIP for Anatman at this point with this information. It's hard to believe they are still holding onto level 50 skills to keep this job alive. Just NO forward evolution with Monk what-so-ever. We just keep going backwards and improving perfect balance that has undergone so many CD adjustments already, and it looks like this will be the lowest is has ever been? Possibly 30 sec for PB? 5.3 changes for Monk really needs a cross analysis of Tornado Kick followed with PB rotation, and one without Tornado Kick rotation. To really see if this will put Tornado Kick back in, with Leaden Fist to supplement for the speed lose. Man Monk really is a mess, and in a bad design slump no matter how you look at it!

[reyre]

Here.

6SS won't be dead, it'll still be useful for disengages since it lets you double dip your GCD. However it may end up getting changed in 5.4 anyway since the devs seemed to internally think of it as a way to refresh stacks rather than a downtime/disengage tool. Presumably Form Shift will still advance your form to the next one, but it will also refresh your stacks with every hit.

The skill that's really getting coffin'd here is Anatman. Fight Design rarely lets you build stacks because of how much they love making you either move during transitions or watch a minute long anime cutscene and then give you zero time before the boss is targetable after the fact. Perfect Balance's shortened recast is basically ripping the recovery aspect out from beneath Anatman (not that it was good for that either) and Form Shift already took the upkeep aspect, now it'll do it even better. All that's left for Anatman now is the opener that relies on counting server ticks.

I think that the better "band aid"in this situation would be just raw dam buff instead of a mechanical change of any kind. While it wont fix MNK issues it will at least give it some utility.

[SpeckledBurd]

I think that the better "band aid"in this situation would be just raw dam buff instead of a mechanical change of any kind. While it wont fix MNK issues it will at least give it some utility.

Form Shift refreshing GL independent of current Form makes Monk's downtime less of a spammy mess and the Perfect Balance buff improves Monk's ability to recover from forced downtime or from getting killed, both of which are problems with the job at the moment.

Per your own admission boosting Monk's damage doesn't fix anything.

[reyre]

Form Shift refreshing GL independent of current Form makes Monk's downtime less of a spammy mess and the Perfect Balance buff improves Monk's ability to recover from forced downtime or from getting killed, both of which are problems with the job at the moment.

Per your own admission boosting Monk's damage doesn't fix anything.

I never said it was a fix, i said as a better "band aid". Even more so since a more cohesive "fix" is coming down the line, so making any changes just to change them later doesnt seem that productive and while you may argue that any change is subject to futher changes, which is true, in this particular case it is not a very usefull "band aid" because is not trying to lessen some fundamental issue. As annoying as it may be Form shift or PB are not an issue, but skills like anatman, TK, SsS, Enlightment, Chakra/Meditation, Brotherhood, Leaden Fist and just RNG are issues. Since you cant fix them all now, you could just make it that BH affects everyone, that alone would go a long way (Ideally they will just remove the damm skill all together). But i digress.

Will it be a less "spammy" band aid? You will try and be in either coeurl or raptor, so less "spammy" by one button. Will it be that different? Even more so when you consider that you might need to use meditation so it might end up being equally as "spammy". It seems, at least to me, that MNK will be changing what button to spam, instead of FS it will be meditation, not that much of a difference to be honest, and even in dungeons it will be still very "spammy".

As for PB recast reduction, while i wont argue against the stacks-death recovery (which, again, to be fair is not how you should be using PB and the better you get at the game the less you will die) its very situational, what if you die after you used PB in your normal rotation?

In most cases having a short PB cast wont matter, unless of course is 20 seconds or so. So now any MNK has a very weird question to ask itself "should i save PB because i dont know if i will die or should i use it normally in the rotation?". As for the forced downtime, i dont think there are many fights that dont give you enough time to recover PB in its current state.

If we take E8s as an example the only big downtime is big enough that you have PB by the end of the Cut Scene, so having a short timer in that case will not help at all and you dont really lose stacks in the adds transition because for better or worse anatman works beautifully there. I havent done enough Copied factory to say this, but from my memory i never lost any GL stacks in the entire Raid. If there are any examples where this could be used for downtime i would love to hear them and even then i dont believe that it would be more than a handful at worst, making the reduced timer a VERY niche option to have which is the problem with current MNK, a bunch of VERY niche and redundant options and skills, that for the vast majority of the game you dont use at all.

Either way this whole argument is moot, they already said what they were changing. Hopefully it wont be JUST Form shift and Perfect balance but some other change as well but what is done is done, so honestly who cares? I can only wait and see.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Will it be a less "spammy" band aid? You will try and be in either coeurl or raptor, so less "spammy" by one button. Will it be that different? Even more so when you consider that you might need to use meditation so it might end up being equally as "spammy".

Depends on where in your rotation the disengage happens and how long the disengage lasts. Leadened Fist has a 30s duration, if it is up disengaging with SSS, Form Shifting to Opo-Opo and then reengaging with Bootshine->Twin Snakes->Demolish might be a viable option.

It seems, at least to me, that MNK will be changing what button to spam, instead of FS it will be meditation, not that much of a difference to be honest, and even in dungeons it will be still very "spammy".

There is a very significant difference between pushing 1 button every ~5s/3 times every 15s and 1 press every 15s. Also Meditation generates 5 chakra out of combat with a single press and during combat you will be pressing it between 1 and 5 times max during a disengage. 3 to 7 button presses during a 25s disengage is far less spammy than 7 to 12 presses.