Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

The two cases are distinct.

Monk already had that exact same interaction you're seeing now. It's just reached at a much less SkS expenditure now than previously. At the SkS levels I played by the end of every expansion and even ARR itself, it was always a net potency loss to keep Twin up permanently.

Dragoon's problem came precisely from nerfing Disembowel's duration, causing an interaction that had never happened before, and, unlike Monk, was entirely unavoidable. They merely reverted an excessive loss of duration.
(They removed Heavy Thrust, which would have cost 1 GCD of duration per Disembowel, and removed 6 seconds (more than 2 GCDs) to compensate. It turns out, >2 is greater than 1.)

And that "miniscule" DPS increase amounts to roughly three positional bonuses. Should we pay those no heed either?

So you think the double true rotation is intentional?

Did you also account for potential 1-2 unbuffed autos too? I attempted to work it out, under GL4, unbuffed Twin is equivalent to 238 Potency, and buffed Twin (10%) is 261.8. so it's a loss of 23.8 potency on Twin but gaining another buffed True Strike which is 369.6 potency. Resulting in an 84 potency increase (369.6 - 261.8 - 23.8). MNK autos are 109 potency on E8S weapon (twin buff and GL4 = 167.86. just GL4 buff = 152.6) so a loss of 15 potency without Twin. BUT there is a chance to miss 2 autos as Twin falls off immediately after BS is pressed and Twin is not applied until the end of its animation resulting in about a 2.5s~ window to get another unbuffed auto.

So the gain for Double True is at best 69 potency at GL4 and at worst 54. At GL4 it's worth 2 positional bonuses. Also, you have to remember you only reap the benefits of this rotation after 3 rotations. Which is equivalent to about 18-23 potency increase per rotation. Now factor in the margin for error and you instantly lose 63 potency off of a Bootshine if you clip or disengage for more than 0.1s. So yes, those bonuses are miniscule. For the effort required and the risk associated the increase IS miniscule. YES it's an increase but it's small.

So tell me, do you really think double true is intentional with less than a 0.1s leeway? It's not. If the devs wanted double true to be intentional and to be what we do at GL4 they would not make the margin for error that tight. I'm done with this arguement and discussion.

[hballamco]

MNK current opener and rotation are both happened by luck. I always fall off twin doing the double true thinking I was doing something wrong but thanks to your explanation I think I'm on the safe side XD

[Shurrikhan]

So you think the double true rotation is intentional?

Yes. I believe it was, because it's always been an option that has always been potency bonus at high SkS.

Again, 54-69 potency per use is more than significant. As in not "miniscule". As in roughly three positional bonuses.

You do not reap the benefits after only 3 rotations. You reap it every other. Twin Snakes has zero chance of falling off of Leaden Fist unless you are running absolute bare minimum SkS, which does not align well for RoF phases anyways. Note, by 3701 SkS, I don't even lose Twin Snakes, period.

So tell me, do you really think double true is intentional with less than a 0.1s leeway?

For 5.x specifically, perhaps not. By all means, ask for it to be buffed to 16s, since the devs have yet to remotely care about the leveling experience anyways. But its being there at all, long before 5.x, is sure as hell intentional; it's been here from the start and worked well enough to be a situational to constant rotational bonus long before GL4, so I'm not about to throw my hands in the air just because rotational compromise is suddenly visible even to my lowest SkS build.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Yes. I believe it was, because it's always been an option that has always been potency bonus at high SkS.

Again, 54-69 potency per use is more than significant. As in not "miniscule". As in roughly three positional bonuses.

You do not reap the benefits after only 3 rotations. You reap it every other. Twin Snakes has zero chance of falling off of Leaden Fist unless you are running absolute bare minimum SkS, which does not align well for RoF phases anyways. Note, by 3701 SkS, I don't even lose Twin Snakes, period.


For 5.x specifically, perhaps not. By all means, ask for it to be buffed to 16s, since the devs have yet to remotely care about the leveling experience anyways. But its being there at all, long before 5.x, is sure as hell intentional; it's been here from the start and worked well enough to be a situational to constant rotational bonus long before GL4, so I'm not about to throw my hands in the air just because rotational compromise is suddenly visible even to my lowest SkS build.

My mistake I put after 3, but I meant on the 3rd. As Rotation 1 you'd Twin, then 2nd you'd True and 3rd you'd True again, only seeing the benefit then.

Your main point was this rotation was intended (to which you've gone back on that slightly now for 5.0). My point is it isn't with how tight it is with the room for error. Also, my original reply was to someone mentioning the 5.x rotation, you replied to that involving yourself in the 5.x double true discussion. Anything that was feasible in the past was irrelevant to what was being discussed. I still highly doubt double true was the intended rotation devs had planned as they seem incapable of developing anything with such foresight into how the jobs will play at the end of an expansion because they don't test those GCD tiers. And because there are those few players that do break the GCD tiers and find a different, alternative combo to be taken advantage of doesn't mean it was intended. Such as the Double Full Thrust rotation in HW for DRG. No way in hell it was intended and required insane amounts of SkS to pull off but again, that required end of expansion (EoE) levels of substats to pull off. And I'm guessing prior to 5.x MNK would also have needed EoE substats to pull off a double true rotation, not to mention it would have been completely cucked by RoF slow back then forcing the rotation to revert back.

We can probably argue this from both sides until we're blue in the face. If you think it was intended then all the more power to you, but from my observations across the job design, it wasn't intended. Especially so with the tight margin for error. Sure, you can break the intended rotation with huge amounts of SkS. That doesn't mean the devs intended it. I can get stacks of GL from an Anatman opener; doesn't mean it's intended. I would love an extra 1-2s on Twin. I'm sure on a reddit post I mentioned they should embrace the double true rotation and extend Twin slightly but they won't because this is MNK we're talking about.
I never said Twin would fall off unless you factor in the margin for error such as clipping or disengages.