Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Seto_Mimyho]

... with the choices between BS or NS1, TrS or NS2, and SnP or NS3 being based on the current situation as that gcd comes up.

So what you're saying is, Designing niche GCDs to be used based on SPECIFIC situations they aren't applicable everywhere when we already have a bunch of Specific situational abilities currently in our kit. As Shurrikhan said,

These 'combos' aren't even pretending to be combos. They merely create non-choices, enforcing bloat."

Also, you seem to have forgotten our AOE rotation which could constitute 7/8/9 so you'd be proposing us having a fourth rotation of 10/11/12 Which is useless bloat and possibly confusing to people.

Yes, they are. If Chakra generation was more consistent there would be fewer complaints about the lack of good actions. Currently, if you had a 30% chance to crit you are looking at about one use of Forbidden Chakra every 17 gcds (roughly 27 to 34 seconds). If chakra generation was closer to 5 Chakra every 10 to 12 gcds those complaints would likely be non-existent.

Okay, Let's look at this shall we. Leading into Shadowbringers we lost quite a few abilities for seemingly nothing in return.

• Internal Release - oGCD that increased out crit chances which inadvertently lead to more Chakras
• Howling Fist - Line AOE oGCD. Got Replaced by Enlightenment a Line AOE oGCD based around Chakras. Making it useless in ST and only worth it in Multi-target.
• Steel Peak - 40s hit for free Damage button. Button Bloat but still an oGCD we lost
• One Ilm Punch - Stun GCD, kind of useless in almost ever thing outside Niche instances.
• Wind, Fire, Earth Tackle - Old Tackle Mastery got replaced and is now just a gutted Wind Tackle.
• Purification - our Reject of an enmity dump, costed Chakras to restore TP (when invigorate did it better)

Then they Nerfed PB from being a 1 Minute CD to a 2 Minute CD and due to GL4 made TK once again not worth it to use outside very niche situations. We lost a ton of abilities from Stormblood to Shadowbringers and no amount of Chakra generation will be able to fill this gap unless it was 1 Chakra per weaponskill. If they allowed us to overflow on Chakras then that'd be great. Such as being able to hold seven chakras, like our job quests, say we have, but only spend 5 at a time.

Anyways, as much as we'd like to go back and forth over the specifics of what we think is wrong with MNK, almost everything has been said by a multitude of people before us. You might see PB as the main issue, while I and others see GL as the main issue. I don't think I'll be able to convince you but I'm just going to try to get my point across with this. GL is single-handedly the worst designed static buff in this game. Without it, the MNK is useless and does no damage and upon getting it you never want to drop it, and losing it means death without dying.

[Shurrikhan]

As Shurrikhan said,

I also said that

[Monk's original take on 'combos'] at least, in its "weird, eclectic" kit, had a sense of skills which independently synergize to create a series of sensible actions as one among multiple choices.

The "non-choices" were in reference to, well, literally all the other uses of "combos" in this game.

That's not to say that the 3x3 grid Monk has, is, or ever will be a combo system, but at least the SkS breakpoints capable of varying between consistent double-True, double-Boot with split Frac/ToD per Demo, and alternating double-True with paired Frac/ToD per Demo, or ID spam prior to those, offered multiple choices of rotation with enough target-specificity to feel like the skills had individual use and particular synergies rather than just being parts of the same decision repeated ad nauseum.

Imo, you can consider a combo system as being one in which the individual parts feel like individual parts (i.e. they are modular) with specific contextual purpose or opportunities (synergies). If those synergies do not allow for choice, at the very least across varying speeds and levels of forced downtime, it's not a combo system, but rather tends towards bloat.

[Ultimatecalibur]

So what you're saying is, Designing niche GCDs to be used based on SPECIFIC situations they aren't applicable everywhere when we already have a bunch of Specific situational abilities currently in our kit. As Shurrikhan said,

No. They would not need to be niche, just usage based on existing resources. In my mind the 3 new abilities would be something like the following:

• New Skill 1 - Opo-opo form, Single target, lower base potency than Bootshine, gains 150 potency from Leaden Fist (same as Bootshine), generates a Chakra if you have fewer than 3. Deep Meditation procs would still apply as normal.
• New Skill 2 - Raptor form, Single target, base potency lower than True Strike. Gains potency if you have fewer than 3 Chakra open which would put it over True Strike.
• New Skill 3 - Coeurl Form, Single target, base potency lower than Snap Punch. Gains potency if you have 3 or more Chakra open which would put it over Snap Punch, but would still be lower than Demolish's total potency. Would generate GL

As you can likely figure out, use of these actions would be based on the current number of open Chakra and therefore conditional in use rather than niche in use. Forbidden Chakra would still be used when ever you got 5 Chakra (possibly delayed a single gcd when going into Coeurl stance if Demolish is still up so that you could get both NS3's enhanced potency and Forbidden Chakra), but would grant greater interaction with the Chakra system while adding back in a greater feeling of flexibility.

Also, you seem to have forgotten our AOE rotation which could constitute 7/8/9 so you'd be having us have a fourth rotation of 10/11/12 Which is useless bloat and possibly confusing to people.

Not really pretty much every job now already has a 2 or 3 button AoE rotation.

Looking at the other Tank/Melee Jobs, the current gcd action (i.e. weaponskills and spells) totals are:

• Paladin - 6 single target, 1 ranged, 1 utility, 1 heal, 3 AoE and 1 that is both single and AoE
• Warrior - 5 single target, 1 ranged and 3 AoE
• Dark Knight - 4 single target, 1 ranged and 3 AoE
• Gunbreaker - 8 single target, 1 ranged and 3 AoE
• Dragoon - 7 single target, 1 ranged and 3 AoE
• Samurai - 6 single target, 1 ranged, 3 AoE and 1 action that is 3 actions (2 single target 1 AoE) in 1.
• Ninja - 5 single target, 1 ranged and 2 AoE and the Ninjutsu system which is 4 buttons that are in effect 7 (3 single target, 2 AoE, 1 utility, 1 buff) gcd actions.

Having a total of 12 or 13 gcd actions isn't that strange or bloated as long as they are useful.

As much as we'd like to go back and forth over the specifics of what we think is wrong with MNK, almost everything has been said by a multitude of people before us. You might see PB as the main issue, while I and others see GL as the main issue. I don't think I'll be able to convince you but I'm just going to try to get my point across with this. GL is single-handedly the worst designed static buff in this game. Without it, the MNK is useless and does no damage and upon getting it you never want to drop it, and losing it means death without dying.

I don't see PB as the main problem just one of several problems that need to be solved in addition to GL, and yes, GL is problematic for the reasons you list. I'm not arguing that it isn't. I'm just not so naive to think that all the Monk's problems would be fixed by fixing GL. In fact I have had some ideas on how to solve the issues of GL, I just didn't feel the need to go over ground that is already well trod when discussion about other flaws would likely be more beneficial to the thread.

[Seto_Mimyho]

New Skill 1 - Opo-opo form, Single target, lower base potency than Bootshine, gains 150 potency from Leaden Fist (same as Bootshine), generates a Chakra if you have fewer than 3. Deep Meditation procs would still apply as normal.
New Skill 2 - Raptor form, Single target, base potency lower than True Strike. Gains potency if you have fewer than 3 Chakra open which would put it over True Strike.
New Skill 3 - Coeurl Form, Single target, base potency lower than Snap Punch. Gains potency if you have 3 or more Chakra open which would put it over Snap Punch, but would still be lower than Demolish's total potency. Would generate GL

You don't seem to be getting what I was getting at. Having 9 GCDs fighting over each other for usage will not solve or fix anything with MNK. Brotherhood's Buff of giving you chakras from other player's weaponskills would cause your proposed 3 skills to be detrimental due to the RNG of it and in standard rotation would throw off any sort of rhythm/harmony that the GCD skills we have at current provide. The core rotation of MNK has almost never been an issue and throwing new GCDs into the mix would only muddle things and in practice would be an utter nightmare to optimize/execute.

... just not so naive to think that all the Monk's problems would be fixed by fixing GL.

You know what you're right, but at current the big things that need to be fixed are (in order of most important to least important, personal opinion).

• Greased Lightning
• Lack of oGCDs
• Amount of Abilities that manipulate Greased Lightning
• Bootshine (Leaden Fist) not being the only thing keeping this class alive DPSwise.