Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Mahrze]

The idea would be a flow of building gauge in wind stance, switch to fire stance and use the gauge for a burst phase, then switch back to wind to rebuild. Anatman would be switched to build gauge similar to samurai's meditate.

While I see the design and think its pretty good. It steps on the toes of SAM, DRG and NIN a bit too much, and that -in my pov- is what I want them to avoid. NIN and SAM started off as jobs that borrowed a design philosophy or a thousand from MNK without any of the MNK's caveats. Even new players in NN on my server call MNK "NIN 1.0/β" or "SAM 1.0β" in terms of combat flow and design.

I know I am being pedantic or something a long those lines (words fail me rn) but I would prefer for them to: Accept MNK is a "gotta go fast" and "punch first, ask questions while punching" kind of job and design systems around it.

[Kalise]

Greased Lightning would be removed. The speed would instead be moved to Wind stance and the damage to fire stance.
The idea would be a flow of building gauge in wind stance, switch to fire stance and use the gauge for a burst phase, then switch back to wind to rebuild.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

But wouldn't this essentially be the old RoF style gameplay that many people disliked? Where you go fast, then when burst phase comes you activate "X of Fire" and get slowed down but more damage?

Only with potential to also try and weave FoF when applying Demolish for the bonus damage?

Some other thoughts:

I was musing about the idea of turning the combo skills into some sort of hybrid of NIN Ninjutsu and CoH's Dual Blades powerset.

Like, remove Demolish and replace it with a new direct damage Coeurl skill. (Possibly also alter Twin Snakes away from being a mere maintenance buff)

Then, create a combo system where each unique progression of skills can create a different bonus effect on the Coeurl skill. Such as, Demolish DoT, Twin Snakes damage buff, True North-esk buffs etc.

Creating a more dynamic flow of combos, as opposed to the current rotation where you basically alternate Bootshine/Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes/True Strike with the occasional Demolish replacing a Snap Punch.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I was musing about the idea of turning the combo skills into some sort of hybrid of NIN Ninjutsu and CoH's Dual Blades powerset.

Like, remove Demolish and replace it with a new direct damage Coeurl skill. (Possibly also alter Twin Snakes away from being a mere maintenance buff)

Then, create a combo system where each unique progression of skills can create a different bonus effect on the Coeurl skill. Such as, Demolish DoT, Twin Snakes damage buff, True North-esk buffs etc.

Creating a more dynamic flow of combos, as opposed to the current rotation where you basically alternate Bootshine/Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes/True Strike with the occasional Demolish replacing a Snap Punch.

It is a cool concept, and funnily enough MNK originally started out doing something similar. Back in ARR, Arm of the Destroyer silenced and One Ilm Punch removed buffs on the target. The Monk was able to replace a Bootshine or Dragon Kick with AotD to interrupt casts and replace Twin Snakes and True Strike with OIP to remove buffs such as Stoneskin, damage/crit up, and def/evade up. It doesn't really work in application due to how fights are designed now.

Back during BCoB progression in 2.0/2.1, as long as someone else interrupted ADS's first High Voltage (which would paralyze everyone if it wasn't prevented), a Monk was fully capable of interrupting every following High Voltage. The Monk also had a distinct advantage when facing things such as FATE Bosses that regularly applied Stoneskin. The Boss would get a 10% hp shield that would take about 45 seconds to remove normally but a Monk could remove it the next time they entered Raptor.


The MNK's combo priorities were like this during ARR:

• Opo-Opo:
  • 3+ Targets or Interruptible ability? Arm of the Destroyer
  • No Blunt Resist down debuff? Dragon Kick
  • Touch of Death DoT not up? Touch of Death
  • Anything else? Bootshine
• Raptor:
  • Removable buff up on target? One Ilm Punch
  • Twin Snakes buff down or about to fall off? Twin Snakes
  • Touch of Death DoT not up? Touch of Death
  • Anything else? True Strike
• Coeurl:
  • 3+ Targets? Rockbreaker
  • Demolish DoT not up? Demolish
  • Touch of Death DoT not up? Touch of Death
  • Anything else? Snap Punch

Starting with HW (and maybe even as early as 2.1) few fights were designed with abilities that could be interrupted every 15s (the Yeti A rank in CWH is one of the few) and few bosses had buffs that were removable with OIP.

[Shurrikhan]

So, false ultimatum, but if you had to decide between the two, would you rather...

1. Have access to all weaponskills at all times with a softer variant of Forms and other factors to then limit the otherwise complete freedom this would grant. Perfect Balance nullifies these penalties, perhaps among others (maybe... guaranteeing positionals, or offering the innate bonuses of each Form simultaneously?).
   
   Or
   
   
2. You can only see the weaponskills for a particular form at a time, but you now have 4-5 skills per Form and different skills switch you to different forms? (Think... Absolver, but with 4 paths -- up from 1 long and 1 short -- across each of 3 forms, down from 4.) Perfect Balance is replaced.

Currently writing a suggestion set for each, but if one is clearly hated, I won't waste time polishing it.

Edit: Currently making use of Blitz skills (a special/dynamic weaponskill based on recent actions) in both versions. Neither version seems particularly better than the other for that, or indeed almost anything. The second just tends to feel more fighting-game-esque, while the first makes it more obvious that you have a large toolkit that you need to weave the best use out of, tactically.

[Kabooa]

So, false ultimatum, but if you had to decide between the two, would you rather....[/SIZE]

2.

Being able to just use anything is less appealing than hard stance-lock outs with incentive to swap between stances on priority based need /want instead of hard timers.

[Shurrikhan]

2.

Being able to just use anything is less appealing than hard stance-lock outs with incentive to swap between stances on priority based need /want instead of hard timers.

Thanks for the info. Been leaning that way myself, but worried that people would be put off by the vaguely "fighting-game" feel it might convey. I'd like, but I want to see how many more opinions I can get and you're the de facto "2" option rn.

May try to create a larger set of questions for a poll within the week... Anyone else got questions they'd like to see others' preferences on?

[Mahrze]

I'm seeing that even the JP thread for MNK is pretty much on the same page as the West in regards to the issues with MNK (from what I can interpret with google translate), with many advocating similar changes. it just surprises me that a thread of that size remains ignored still.

[Satarn]

I'm seeing that even the JP thread for MNK is pretty much on the same page as the West in regards to the issues with MNK (from what I can interpret with google translate), with many advocating similar changes. it just surprises me that a thread of that size remains ignored still.

If you're referring to JP thread's size, keep in mind that JP community tends to put all job feedback in a single thread per job - those threads are several years(and expansions) old, so they're all gigantic in comparison to anything you'll see here.

That said, it's still pretty bs that SE has yet to even acknowledge the MNK situation(beyond that stupid change to Anatman which failed miserably).

[Mahrze]

If you're referring to JP thread's size, keep in mind that JP community tends to put all job feedback in a single thread per job - those threads are several years(and expansions) old, so they're all gigantic in comparison to anything you'll see here.

That said, it's still pretty bs that SE has yet to even acknowledge the MNK situation(beyond that stupid change to Anatman which failed miserably).

Oh I am aware that its a years thread. My jab was how the thread follows the "feedback guidelines" they ask of us in the west and yet they have the same complaints in relation to the job and the complaints still land on deaf ears.

[Ramura_Sono]

If you're referring to JP thread's size, keep in mind that JP community tends to put all job feedback in a single thread per job - those threads are several years(and expansions) old, so they're all gigantic in comparison to anything you'll see here.

That said, it's still pretty bs that SE has yet to even acknowledge the MNK situation(beyond that stupid change to Anatman which failed miserably).

Looking at that thread really helps to support the fact that Monk's issues have existed for and been ignored for years.