Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[ValStormbreaker]

Response part 1:

It's not really about...

This is only an issue if you go by the Balance rotation which is at a GCD speed of 1.94. If you play at a GCD speed of 1.86 or higher, lots of these problems are resolved and you don't have to double up on anything. The big issue with job balance overall is that there's little incentive DPS-wise to invest in speed because it results in a damage loss, but this is where I'd say for all jobs, if a SkS increase were tied to a main stat increase, there'd be a lot more freedom with rotation variety and dull jobs would become more exciting to play, without having to worry about a damage loss. It's clear from live letters and interviews that the battle design team is more interested in how jobs play in terms of flow and feel, whereas mathing out what does the maximum amount of damage is more of a community-borne attitude, and the devs don't seem to share that philosophy.

At 1.86 and higher everything falls back into alignment and DPS output is still viable for clearing Savage content, and the jankiness with the type of MNK play you're familiar with from this expansion goes away entirely.

Tbh I would rather MNK take ideas from GNB and NIN.

This is literally the worst idea ever. No. Absolutely not. The things that NIN and GNB do are like training wheels for MNK, where players are rewarded for understanding how to consciously time the usage of their oGCDs into their GCD window. By using something like Tenchijin or Continuation, you rob players of that choice which reduces the skill ceiling. When Mr. Happy suggested doing to Brotherhood what NIN changes did to Tenchijin, I immediately screamed "HELL NO," because giving it a fixed amount of inputs like 6 punishes players who understand how to time Brotherhood into a GCD window and get a 7th one, and this becomes harmful to alternative styles of play and high-speed rotations, restricting the variety of play style. That goes against what they said in a past live letter they want to do with MNK in SHB.

Continuation ability on MNK would feel great imo and keep to the core of feeling fast.

Remove TFC, re add it, Haymaker and OIP as add them as part of continuation, with TFC being the finisher to it. Make it all cost 5 chakra, increase max chakras to 7.

The chakra gauge needs to be at 5 because it's a visual reference to the Wu Xing elements and chakra points, so this is never going to happen.

Asking for things to be removed, re-added, and then putting in Haymaker and OIP (no thank you, that was removed for good reason) is excessively complicated, and I don't think you understand that requests such as these are why MNK feedback falls on deaf ears.

[ValStormbreaker]

Part 2:

The amount of work needed to implement all this stuff, and then rebalance the job, is just way too much work and cost to be reasonable, especially because it has to be balanced with a) every other job in the game, and b) every encounter design. You're getting wayyyyy ahead of yourself here and asking for the Taj Mahal. It is infinitely more likely for quick and cost-effective solutions (i.e. "this thing can be implemented within the hour and we already have all the assets/animations/icons/effects done for it") to be implemented over these requests. And that's pretty much a running theme with this post of yours.

It is simpler to just say "put this one oGCD into the game," and for that, see my prior post about Axe Kick, which already solves a lot of problems.

Add a filler chakra cost for ST and AoE.

Unnecessary.

Have TK proc from GL upkeep for however long (30s?).

Making TK a proc-based ability instead of a meter-based thing goes against the spirit of MNK as a martial arts job. The meter makes it more like a fighting game. Changing it to a proc-based ability is antithetical to the identity of the job.

Move chakra building to certain positionals (true and snap as they have no extra effect) and have it increase linearly instead of RNG.

I'm not the biggest fan of the RNG but chakra gain issues are some of the most minor with MNK right now and tying them to positionals instead of them being critical hit based, when we have guaranteed critical hits from BS and very predictable points in the rotation where we can expect a chakra gain, sounds like a nightmare to both play and balance.

Remove chakra gains from Brotherhood, make BH 5% damage buff to all.

This is a terrible idea, because chakra gain during Brotherhood gives MNK something more to do and allows for more weaving opportunities, which is where the fun factor of the job comes from, and it would totally nerf damage output in the burst window. BH can't be a 5% damage buff to all, because then it creates balance issues with DRG's Battle Litany, and pretty much any buffs from NIN, DNC or BRD. The amount of time and resources needed to rebalance the job would be absolutely staggering so the likelihood of this ever happening is nonexistent. A better idea would be to take the stacking effect of Meditative Brotherhood (which is listed nowhere on the tool tip but is indeed part of Brotherhood as of 4.3) and remove that, and instead double the percentage to 60%. At present, a stacked Brotherhood allows MNK to have tFC with enough of a frequency that it adds a tremendous degree of fun to the job, nearly making up for the lack of oGCDs.

[ValStormbreaker]

Part 3:

Remove potency from Leaden fist and spread it more evenly across the rotation

I agree with this. Specifically, instead of putting all their eggs in one basket with LF only adding 150 potency to Bootshine, spread that 150 evenly between the 6 single-target primary weaponskills, so +25 a piece. Then it becomes like Blunt Resistance Down, only now there's no confusion as to what it does. It's the simplest way to propose this solution in concrete terms.

Remove fist stances

While I agree FoE is pretty useless in its current incarnation, I'd disagree with you about FoF and FoW.

Firstly, in certain high-speed rotations, being able to switch between the two is necessary in order to maintain viable damage output while trying to get your stacks up.

Secondly, you have to remember that while some MNK mains like to go fast, a) not everyone is comfortable with high speeds, and b) not everyone has the ping to handle a ping-dependent job. The fists allow for a player to modulate speed based on their personal comfort while maintaining damage output. This was done in order to make the job accessible to a broader demographic of players. Getting rid of it and forcing MNK into a baseline speed would outright ruin the job for many players, so this idea would cause more harm than good.

Lastly I'd rework Anatman to give 1 or 2 stacks of GL instantly with no channeling.

Please re-read my post about putting the 5.1 version Axe Kick into PvE. It works for single-target fights, it works for dungeons, it slices, it dices, it cooks, cleans and does your taxes. Leave Anatman for things like phase transitions and just get rid of the silly-looking Form Shift spam to keep stacks up, as it wasn't even in SHB to begin with and was only a band-aid measure. If you're concerned about chakra gains as well, just add in Somersault to boot, because it would just give a chakra stack and help give players a bit more control over their chakra gain, so they're not left hanging with 4 out of 5 chakras and unable to tFC when it would be ideal to. Leave their PvP effects, give Axe Kick 80 potency like AotD and Somersault could have a lower potency as well, like 120 or something to that effect.

This is a very simple solution to a lot of MNK's problems. That, and just slightly buff TK and shave off two seconds from its recast time, so those of us who know how to do the SHB version of the TK opener can do so without it not being so worth it, and without having a weird GCD clipping issue if at specific odd-numbered GCD speeds (e.g. 1.87, 1.85, etc.). It doesn't rely on massive reworks or reinventions to the job, and it can literally be implemented and tested within the hour without having to rework job-wide potencies.

Anything else is just too much work. Keep the suggestions simple and you're more likely to get what you want, sooner rather than later.

[3ureka]

snip

Not sure how you can reconcile bashing the idea of (I imagine you meant perfect balance and not brotherhood) PB having 6 inputs and being concerned about how higher ping players will be able to play monk if their skill speeds reach sub 2 seconds. Wouldn’t this be to the benefit of high latency players and whoever is uncomfortable with high skill speed? They wouldn’t have to worry about the tight timing and/or if they executed PB late enough into the GCD.

Also, the fact that SE allows MCH’s hyper charge > heat blast / auto crossbow to exist (among other things) would suggest that FoF wasn’t designed to be an option for higher ping players.

About the chakra gauge needing to be 5 because of Wu Xing… the job quest clearly talks of 7 (and 14) chakras. While it would be fulfilling to see the devs make the connection between the story and our actual gauge, I’d say the devs’ time could be better spent elsewhere.

I don’t think Sora meant TK being a “proc” as something random; it would be a reward for keeping max gl stacks for X amount of seconds (30 or 45 sound good). If you want to talk about what goes against the spirit of monk, look no further than deep meditation, which I would say is a major issue.

Like you said and how I mentioned earlier in the thread, having the devs tune/incorporate existing assets is probably more likely than a full rework (although MCH proves otherwise). Using assets like Axe Kick from PvP is a great idea; I’d say they can go one further and implement how chakra is generated in PvP to PvE (maybe locking the actual generation to landing a positional correctly).

[ValStormbreaker]

Response part 1 (ugh character limits XD)

Not sure...

The problem with the "higher ping players" argument is you're looking at something very situational and then asking for changes to the entirety of the player base to cater to a portion. That very line of thinking is what got MNK into its 5.x incarnation in the first place.

There are good reasons for why online games tend not to make concessions for people with high pings or bad internet connections. YOUR latency is YOUR problem, and YOUR responsibility. It is within your power to upgrade your net connection, or move to an area that supports a better net connection if online gaming is important to you (I did this myself when I first moved from the East Coast to the West Coast). If it's not within your power to do so right this very moment, it may be in the future if life circumstances permit or even require you to do so.

To impose game design decisions onto the entirety of the player base because some people have more latency than others is reckless and irresponsible. This goes doubly for players - many of whom I know on my own server - who are connecting to the game via a VPN from places like the Philippines to a North American data center. That's a choice they choose to make, and players who are actually IN North America shouldn't have to suffer consequences because someone chooses to subject themselves to latency issues. If I were visiting family in New Zealand and I'd be connecting to an NA data center with a bad ping, I would understand that I don't have a gun to my head forcing me to play a high-speed job like MNK or MCH, and can switch jobs at any time, unlike many other MMORPGs out there, and use something else my ping would be able to handle for endgame content. I would never, ever in a million years demand that the game change to cater to my situation, and would instead exercise personal accountability because the former is incredibly entitled. Japanese players are also extremely close to their data centers and it punishes them when they don't have latency issues. So, consider the broader consequences of catering to pings.

The argument that we should make all the things accessible because some people MIGHT want to try it is foolish. Not every job is going to cater to every player, and players who enjoy the job because of its speed and complexity are the ones who get shafted the most. That's not a risk I'm willing to take... again. Why again? What did 5.0 accessibility changes for players with high pings do to MNK in the end? We lost a bunch of oGCDs because double-weaving was hard for players to do, making the job far more boring and simple. Now it's the least played job in the game, and only garnered interest briefly because it was top of the tier list, not because it was more fun to play. I don't want a repeat of that, so let's learn from the mistakes of history, shall we?

[ValStormbreaker]

Part 2

I prefer being able to fit in as many abilities within the PB window as I can based on my skill and what I'm capable of doing at the speeds I'm capable of playing. Suggesting we force PB into a strict 6 GCDs would take that away from players like me, in order to make it accessible for players who aren't good enough to do it on their own, ping or no ping. That devalues actual skill and practice, and neuters the job further. No thank you!

Also, the fact that SE allows MCH’s...

How Machinist is designed is a mutually exclusive topic from how Fists of Fire works. We don't even know that the same people were responsible for the same decisions between both jobs. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

About the chakra gauge...

Wu Xing doesn't mean "five chakras," it means "five elements,". They are conceptually tied to the idea of chakra points on the body, and the system is still used as a reference in some forms of complementary and alternative medicine and martial arts in various Far East Asian cultures since it flourished in the Han Dynasty.

The reason it's not going anywhere is because it's of cultural relevance to the Far East Asian player demographic, and we're talking about a Japanese publisher. The likelihood that this will change because you want an alteration to the chakra system is small.

I don’t think Sora meant TK being...

I understand what she meant. It's still antithetical to the identity of the martial artist job. In fighting games, meter management is a thing you need to handle yourself. Making it a "reward" for keeping GL stacks up for what is pretty much the recast time of a True North is once again taking away a big chunk of agency from the player.

Whether or not you want to accept it, the double tornado kick opener is actually still possible in SHB. People have posted about this on these very forums before, myself included. It's extremely fun to do, too, and it is still viable for content, even if it isn't optimal. The problems with it which make the effort in pulling it off not worth it are only two things, 1) it's not powerful enough to justify dropping stacks, and 2) the 10-second recast time causes GCD clipping in specific situations. The solutions to this are very simple: buff TK and reduce its recast time by two seconds.

Then, those of us who actually ENJOY the opener and WANT to use it again have the option to do so. And pulling it off at high speeds requires skill, finesse and precise timing, so being able to do it feels like a reward for having skill. Suggesting making it a proc for doing something as braindead as not dropping stacks for 45 seconds not only removes the feeling of it being rewarding, it restricts how often it can be used and inhibits variety of gameplay. Again, this hurts the job further and restricts player agency by overly simplifying it.

[ValStormbreaker]

Part 3

Like you said...

MCH wasn't completely revamped mid-expansion into what it is now compared to Stormblood. If you want to have that discussion with MNK, save it for when 6.0 is around the corner, since it's not productive to have it in the here and now when there are more straightforward alternatives you're infinitely more likely to get.

Tying chakra generation to positionals is a taller order from a programming perspective than perhaps you're willing to give credit for. It also isn't a completely thought-out idea, since it means every 5 GCDs I'll have tFC and that not only causes balance problems, it disrupts the rhythm, beat and flow of the job's rotation, especially with how it plays on a controller. All the double-weaving MNK has is in the same sets of pairs, and that is what gives the job its waltz-like 3-beat structure. All of a sudden, what sounds like a simple idea on paper to you winds up opening a can of worms that just makes things more unnecessarily complicated and affects other parts of the job. You can't suggest stuff like that in a vacuum, you have to think of how it affects the package.

What you would like, in essence, is what I've been suggesting since before 5.0 then, and that's the inclusion of Somersault. It's a cool-looking oGCD that deals damage and gives a chakra, allowing for players to offset the sting of RNG with a bit more control. This way you're not stuck at 4 out of 5 chakras and get unlucky with RNG before your burst window runs out with nothing to do.

I can't stress this enough... I think if we could only ask for two major changes, and what we got was 5.1 Axe Kick from PvP and Somersault (with adjusted potencies, of course), rotations will be affected such that 90% of the problems people obsess over would minimize into non-issues and hair-splitting gripes. We'd get two oGCDs, have the GL stack issue solved, and have a bit more control over chakra, all while looking cool doing it. And the icons are already done and the animations are already made so there's very little time or cost needed to implement them. The only other thing I'd do is to buff TK and shave 2 seconds off its recast time and MNK is pretty much back in good shape and fun to play.

Couldn't ask for a simpler or more elegant solution if you tried.

But asking for things like trying to reinvent how chakra gain works and making TK into a skill that procs, and all that... that's just getting into "reinventing the wheel" territory and makes things more complex than it needs to be. If this is the nature of the suggestions that MNK mains have been giving over the past few years, then it's no wonder these suggestions aren't being implemented, because compared to "buff TK and slap two seconds off its recast time, and move these two pre-existing PvP moves into PvE," we're getting a bit lofty and leaping into "easier said than done" territory. Keep it simple, and you're more likely to get what you want sooner rather than later.

[Mahrze]

Response part 1 (ugh character limits XD)

You can actually edit your post to bypass the character limits. Just save your essay post before and put in something like "placeholder" since to place a reply you need at least 10 characters and "placeholder" is 10 characters.

Just a small QoL suggestion.

It really feels like 90% of the problems most players are experiencing with Anatman, SSS and TK are the result of slowing the job down for more power.

My issues with those skills is how counter-intuitive MNK is, they always try to go one direction but don't seem to know where said direction will take them.

As a Brawler in RPG fashion, the job doesn't flow compared to exmaples we've given before of games like other Main FFs, Legend of Legaia, Xenogears, Star Ocean and even some Tales of games.

Outside of those references my gripe is: Combos don't evolve, they don't extend/branch to anything. Fists would likely create a layer of complexity to branch or change combos but it seems that overall they want to make things as linear as possible and MNKs base design screams "I do what I want". And while I don't mind its versatility, if it loses some of it for the sake of some semblance of evolution and enhancement of gameplay then I am ok with that.

But I am convinced at this point I'll be pressing 3 buttons in 6.0.