Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Shurrikhan]

And there's a difference between skills like those and skills that don't see use at all because their design rendered it non-functional in all situations.

If you're peeved about the removal of One Ilm Punch I don't know what to tell you dude. There have been Niche actions in the game on all jobs that may as well have been useless, but One Ilm Punch wasn't utility. It was a button that did nothing but punish you for hitting it without actually giving you any effect because it was so bad.

Fun strawman. Fun hyperbole.

I said that I'd prefer that situational skills (Defensives beyond merely Second Wind for DPS, Bloodbath for Tanks, etc., etc.) not be killed on sight over a mistaken belief that they will be replaced with something better. When something replaces them at all, they tend to be more obligatory actions, sure, but rarely any more satisfying, often trading non-obligatory "bloat" for obligatory "bloat".

OIP traded 50 potency for a stun. That is quite literally an effect. It's mostly crap, but it is an effect, whereby if that stun let, say, your SAM manage a single extra positional and you save a fifth of a GCD of uptime by not having to run out and back, it was already an rDPS gain. That's far from as useful as it could or should have been, but unless the existence of every single weaponskill besides the most optimal in a given GCD is likewise "punishing you" just for being a choice that you didn't take off your hotbar, it's just a niche skill, not a poison.

I never argued its loss was a problem. I argued that removing things the use of which wasn't obligatory in the first place, usually to be replaced by something obligatory but no more satisfying -- or by nothing at all, is at best a lateral move.

Something unenjoyable that you don't have to deal with (e.g. OIP) is generally going to be a fair sight better than something unenjoyable that you are obliged to deal with (e.g. Anatman openers). Insisting that every skill that sees situational use be removed without any idea of what to replace it with does us no favors.

[Mikey_R]

OIP traded 50 potency for a stun. That is quite literally an effect. It's mostly crap, but it is an effect, whereby if that stun let, say, your SAM manage a single extra positional and you save a fifth of a GCD of uptime by not having to run out and back, it was already an rDPS gain. That's far from as useful as it could or should have been, but unless the existence of every single weaponskill besides the most optimal in a given GCD is likewise "punishing you" just for being a choice that you didn't take off your hotbar, it's just a niche skill, not a poison.

If you are looking into optimising fights that much, ignoring the communication hurdle, the boss will be immune to stuns anyway, making it complete non issue. For dungeon runs, it really doesn't matter as again, bosses are mostly immune to stun and trash goes down to mass AoE, again, not useful (if you want to inturrupt AoEs you use Leg Sweep and keep the massive damage gain of Four-point Fury over One Ilm Punch).

Even on the case where you want to stun something for an extended period of time, eg. Dread Knights in Twintania (assuming synced), you are better off with leg sweep from both monk and the OT, that's 6 seconds of stun time, which is more than enough time to kill it.

It is literally a useless skill, even the function it was meant to serve is non existent as nothing will be immune to stun in the time it takes for the stun resist to wear off, unless people are using it haphazardly, in which case, it's the players causing the problem, not the content. As a slight, but relevant tangent, I don't have Shield Bash on my PLD bars. There are no situations where I would want to stun anything that quickly and Leg Sweep has always been available for when I do need it. Chain stuns just are not needed at all and again, things lose their stun resist before you need to use it again for the 4th time, so being able to stun through the resist was a completely useless feature that Monk had.