Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[XValenusX]

Ez Changes IMO

1.) Make TK a Single Target Elixer Field which shares CD. SSS can stay as a disengage from the boss (just remove that nonsensical recast reduction)

2.) Remove anatman, cuz it's virtually useless (or change what it does, or something) Form Shift does it better.

3.) Bring Back Tackle Stacks (cause why not) Tackle mastery, while handled semi poorly was still way more engaging than what we have now.

4.) Change Dragon Kick somehow. Leaden Fist feels awful to use as a "burst phase" tool. (personal opinion)

Just a couple things off the top of my head

[VentVanitas]

Ez Changes IMO

1.) Make TK a Single Target Elixer Field which shares CD. SSS can stay as a disengage from the boss (just remove that nonsensical recast reduction)

2.) Remove anatman, cuz it's virtually useless (or change what it does, or something) Form Shift does it better.

3.) Bring Back Tackle Stacks (cause why not) Tackle mastery, while handled semi poorly was still way more engaging than what we have now.

4.) Change Dragon Kick somehow. Leaden Fist feels awful to use as a "burst phase" tool. (personal opinion)

Just a couple things off the top of my head

Easy changes, but they're not what MNK needs if you ask me. (except for 4)

1. Monk has so little OGCD attacks to begin with, let's not tread the path of MCH and have more AoE exclusive moves please, not to mention it'd be a total waste for TK when it can be made into something more substantial in the case of a rework.
2. I agree mostly, but in my opinion they both need significant changes, not just Anatman.
3. Having Wind Tackle back would be cool, but we don't even know if it will function properly considering they're going to make GL passive. We don't entirely know what that entails but chances are Wind Tackle won't help much if at all.
4. This is the only one I fully agree with. Bootshine shouldn't be our most powerful skill and I hate that doing good damage on the job entirely revolves around hitting as many Leaden Buttshines as possible.

[Valence]

If people think that Six Sided Star's only use is just before a downtime or a kill "like tornado kick", I seriously urge you to learn to use it. It's an absolutely great tool for every kind of disconnect due to mechanics (or a great GL safeguard if you fuck up).

Also what the hell are you on about, Riddle of Earth is one of the most insane, if not the most potent skill in all of monk's arsenal. 30s free of positionals every minute on top of a defensive buff is just crazy. Use it.

[VentVanitas]

If people think that Six Sided Star's only use is just before a downtime or a kill "like tornado kick", I seriously urge you to learn to use it. It's an absolutely great tool for every kind of disconnect due to mechanics

No, not every kind of disconnect. Keep in mind that SSS keeps us from using our actual disengage tool, Meditate. Some disconnects aren't long enough to justify using SSS (outside of high level optimization) when with the same time it takes us to use and recover from it, we can build 3 Chakra instead.

It's mediocre presentation as a situational disconnect tool is what has people upset about it, hence it being compared to TK, another situational skill. If it were something like a backstep however, it'd be far less egregious.

[Sqwall]

No, not every kind of disconnect. Keep in mind that SSS keeps us from using our actual disengage tool, Meditate. Some disconnects aren't long enough to justify using SSS (outside of high level optimization) when with the same time it takes us to use and recover from it, we can build 3 Chakra instead.

It's mediocre presentation as a situational disconnect tool is what has people upset about it, hence it being compared to TK, another situational skill. If it were something like a backstep however, it'd be far less egregious.

I have gotten used to using SSS right before Forbidden when it's ready. I don't really care how clunky it is when it's used as a disengage, but I do see that it is really great to use with Forbidden and Elixir field. It's just a crumby oGCD, but it is powerful compared to other skills. It is a nice compliment to forbidden to use during the extended recast time it tacks on.

I often find SSS critting for 50-60k with forbidden critting as well into the 40-50k range. Follow up forbidden with elixir or shoulder tackle. Just need to fill in that gap.

I'll use it this way until they change it, and I don't see a problem currently. Optimized rotations will argue, but monk is friggin busted and I don't care anymore.

[wereotter]

No, not every kind of disconnect. Keep in mind that SSS keeps us from using our actual disengage tool, Meditate. Some disconnects aren't long enough to justify using SSS (outside of high level optimization) when with the same time it takes us to use and recover from it, we can build 3 Chakra instead.

It's mediocre presentation as a situational disconnect tool is what has people upset about it, hence it being compared to TK, another situational skill. If it were something like a backstep however, it'd be far less egregious.

But... consider this, that's STILL a DPS loss to meditate over using Six Sided Star. Each chakra stack represents 1/5 of a Forbidden Chakra, being 74 potency each, or in the case of gaining three when you disconnect, 222 potency. If you use Six Sided Star when you do a disconnect, you're getting 400 potency from using the skill. This means you're getting about twice the potency from using the new tool to disconnect over continuing to do the Heavensward technique of meditating when you disconnect.

[Mikey_R]

But... consider this, that's STILL a DPS loss to meditate over using Six Sided Star. Each chakra stack represents 1/5 of a Forbidden Chakra, being 74 potency each, or in the case of gaining three when you disconnect, 222 potency. If you use Six Sided Star when you do a disconnect, you're getting 400 potency from using the skill. This means you're getting about twice the potency from using the new tool to disconnect over continuing to do the Heavensward technique of meditating when you disconnect.

However, these 2 situations are not comparable, as you do not use Meditate as a disconnect, you use one of your GCDs. This means you have to take into account that GCD + meditate to make it comparable to a SSS disconnect.

This means, you have to take SSS's potency and take away the potency of a GCD, which leaves the potency that meditate has to cover. Going through all of Monk's GCDs, the potency difference ends up like this:

Positive numbers are in SSS favour and negative numbers are in GCD favour.

Twin Snakes (170) = 230
Dragon Kick (200) = 200
Snap Punch (230) = 170
True Strike (240) = 140
Demolish (480) = -20
Bootshine (450) = -50 (Note I took crit damage increase as 1.5)

As you can see, in most cases, in a general potency vein, SSS will win out, even taking into account 1 or 2 miditation stacks (True Strike becomes better if you get 2 meditation stacks).

However, this still is not the end of it as you then have to take into account disconnect time. If the disconnect time is shorter than SSS GCD, then it is not going to be worth it as delaying your main GCD rotation will provide less potency overall. This fact could also start bumping up some other GCDs into the category of higher overall potency per second (though I'm not going to do the maths on that, so no guarantees).

In short, it does go deeper than just meditate vs. SSS and there is alot of stuff behind the scenes that could mean one is better than the other dependant on your GCD speed and disconnect time and, unless you know everything about every encounter, you will lose damage.

[VentVanitas]

But... consider this, that's STILL a DPS loss to meditate over using Six Sided Star. Each chakra stack represents 1/5 of a Forbidden Chakra, being 74 potency each, or in the case of gaining three when you disconnect, 222 potency. If you use Six Sided Star when you do a disconnect, you're getting 400 potency from using the skill. This means you're getting about twice the potency from using the new tool to disconnect over continuing to do the Heavensward technique of meditating when you disconnect.

I admit that for the point I'm about to bring up, it was a bad argument. The optimization hell of uptime, disconnects and SSS vs Meditate quite literally depends on the exact disconnect in a specific fight as well as the amount of Chakra in the gauge (thank you, RNG). However, the main point I wanted to get across is that we shouldn't pat SE on the back for making a skill like Six Sided Star on MNK. I get quite worried seeing people praise it for being "versatile" when it's pretty much the opposite, a situational skill. Yes, it has its uses, but it still doesn't excuse its, to be frank, backwards design.

I don't want the development team getting the wrong idea with SSS thinking that it's what MNK needed, and that it needs more skills like it. Because it sure as heck doesn't. Yes, I know no one from the dev team reads these threads, but it has me paranoid nonetheless.

[Sqwall]

I don't want the development team getting the wrong idea with SSS thinking that it's what MNK needed, and that it needs more skills like it. Because it sure as heck doesn't. Yes, I know no one from the dev team reads these threads, but it has me paranoid nonetheless.

The history for monk shows otherwise. It has always seemed to me the devs want monk to be something completely different from all the other classes. Now while I like the fact that each job needs and should feel different to play, and that's what makes people identify with a particular class.

Monk however is a chore to play.

That being said monk has never really kept up with the other jobs playstyles. I look at all the jobs (with the exception of bard) having evolved leaps and bounds over Monk. Where some if not most jobs have skills that are replaced with traits that give you improved skills with flashy new animations.

Monk got a baked turd for 3 expansions and players were told "Just use the same skills you have been using...it'll be fine!" *as we are shooed away like a child* All the while we are given "new" skills that are just plain...useless and pretty much relegated to hotbar trash. For crying out loud One Ilm Punch hung on for a LONG time before it finally got the boot. I took that crap off my hotbar 5 min after I was "awarded" the skill.

Could we have gotten something in the vein of traited skill replacements?

Dragon Kick is upgraded with a trait to grant 1 chackra with a new flashy animation. Sure!

Demolish is upgraded with a trait to allow using Tornado Kick without using GL. Tornado Kick cooldown increased to 30 seconds. Why not!

These are ideas SE doesn't want to implement to monk as they don't want to spend the time to make the job cool and FUN to play. I say this because they spent the last 7 years believing it was fine...yet here we are soon with a complete revamp of monk.