Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Mahrze]

But just like how you may dislike Monk being centered solely around cooldowns, to the preclusion of any brawler style or interesting set-up, RoF was a slow-down forced upon us, rather than able to be flexibly and optionally integrated into rotation and thereby exploited as a part of Monk's unique advantages (e.g. flexible combos). Note that the same complaint was never used in connection to SB's TK usage; instead, TK rotations were villainized by their performance gap between high- and low-ping players and the clunkiness of their triple weave. The latter offered control and outside of meta comps was only a small gain at high SkS levels.

RoF lacked control and fit poorly with all but a couple SkS levels. The TK rotation, as might be expected for something utterly unintended, lacked polish in its buttonflow and stat balancing. But at least they each made use of the larger Monk kit when used properly. RoF allowed for perfect duration sync and a secondary rotation over its duration. TK allowed for RoW, stances, and PB to really mean something. That's what I want to see here: nothing going to waste.


Any homogeneity concerns about Dragoon or Black Mage would be found on Dragoon and Black Mage threads, respectively. Though, even there my concern has rarely ever been homogeneity, but rather making far better use of the existing kit rather than leaving something unpolished just to replace it later. None too shockingly, I've expressed dislike of both BotD and Enochian being mere maintenance gimmicks, offering that Enochian would more interestingly and usefully serve as a gameplay-adjusting cooldown (with F4 and B4 no longer locked behind it) and BotD as a gauge resource generated by skills, rather than just a cooldown, and again spent by Geirskogul or Nostrond.

I can see things going to waste with the current kit if they keep reinventing things to maintain them as relevant. 1 or 2 abilities they earned in the last 2 expansions were lost and never found a replacement to compensate. Others were simply removed instead of finding ways to use them like you would like them to. So its clear at this point that what exists for MNK is something they struggle to work with and so far, the jobs that have received mid to complete reworks have been overall well received and have been given better purposes by pruning most of that is seen as things they can't (or don't know how to) work with.

I know manipulating speed is a good concept and it would be quite unique and rewarding. My problem is that I can't trust SE to make something with enough nuance in the rev ups or downs that doesn't lead to (after doing the math) to just stay at the highest speed tier because that's what SE would do if we're perfectly honest. BRD's soul arrow is an example of an ability that while it has nuance, you're better off using it at max than anything else between the min 20 points and cap.

...Also that cool super saiyan mode that was the Forbidden Chakra right before we got just a lame oGCD skill)

This. Remembering this wounds me.

[Shurrikhan]

Like we've ever had choice in this. Earth stance has been useless since its inception.

Yes, my criticizing the hell out of current stances and offering completely different alternatives to them was definitely me declaring my support for their current versions? I've called them crap since ARR. I've suggested changes to them since ARR. Why are you conflating how they currently work with my suggestions, wherein I completely changed how they work?

Focusing first on a foundation because it is necessary for making so much else I want to really work does not equate to wanting nothing else changed. Not wanting to spend 3 buttons just to determine whether I go at, say, base, +10%, or +20% Attack Speed, with no ability to change between them in combat, does not mean I like the current version of stances.

It is not a matter of poison A or poison B. There are likely dozens of other options. I arrived at my own preference carefully, based on what I want to see for the job once our current bloat skills can be decoupled from GL.

Though, this is why I also mentioned changes to the Riddle skills to make up for the loss of potential in "Stance swapping" between the fists, by having Riddle of Earth and Riddle of Wind be actually interesting and useful skills to contrast against Riddle of Fire and it's raw damage boost.

There is no ultimatum here. You can have BOTH. You can have GL as an actual mechanic and have Riddle of ~ as an actual mechanic. They. Do. Not. Preclude. Each. Other. You can even stack additional GL mechanics on, say, its ramping up stacks. It's not just one or the other.

There are no choices. Not for optimal play. As I've mentioned above. There will never be a choice in this game if you're playing for min/max.

Ignoring that I said "viable", not "optimal"... I wonder where I heard that before. Oh, right!

At such a confined performance level, we don't get choice; we at best get diversity with low costs for playing how we want.

A viable choice is one which can lead into an ultimately optimal set of choices. Taken in slice against alternative uses for the GCD or whatever smaller section of time, it is not optimal, though likely very near to the optimal choice's performance. Taken as a whole or larger section of time, on the other hand, it may be optimal, depending on surrounding contexts. I've expressly distinguished between the two.
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I can see things going to waste with the current kit if they keep reinventing things to maintain them as relevant.

The point is that you don't have to. In fact, every addition to GL manipulation since HW has only devalued the tools that have come before it, including GL itself. RoE devalued TK. SSS devalued 5.0 RoE. Anatman devalued both 5.0 RoE and TK. 5.1 Form Shift devalued Anatman and TK and replaced GL as a mechanic with anti-QoL spam. The last three are all bloat that never should have been designed as they were.

Then why are they there? For all of those, why? Because they didn't bother to fix GL itself, leaving bloated manipulations seemingly lucrative when in fact no additional skills should have been required. GL needs only to be build, optionally spent, and to be maintained in an engaging way. All that takes is to make it less punishing through passive adjustments and further no-bloat means of control.

Heck, even just maintaining a high speed can be engaging if it just means that it is (1) not easy, but (2) not necessary for high performance, either. There was a period in WoW where Shadow Priests could rev up to ridiculous amounts of Haste by maintaining Voidform for as long as possible. Breaking +100% Haste put you in the "Mile High Club". It wasn't easy, and because the Haste would then drain you that much faster it wasn't quite so rewarding as it might first appear, but it was damn fun.

Think of something like that, where we pop Riddle of Wind and suddenly we're not just GL1, GL2, and GL3, but GL-variable-transmission, going as high as we can, and where you're forced to gamble a bit early on, hedge those bets further in, and hope like hell near the end in order to get as much as you can out of it. (RNG can be fun when there are good and bad bets and a few safe ones to work around.) For those who can't handle... there's RoF, which can perform higher if it times to that particular batch of raid buffs since RoW would have a long ramping phase (that you want to ensure lasts into said raid buffs some 15 seconds or so later). RoE? Raid damage taken --> Potency dished out, but not stacking with positional potency bonuses (thus guaranteeing positionals). Now imagine those things as being spent by a granular gauge like a revised form of Chakra. That's what I'm looking for.

It just all tends to work far better with a stack-by-stack spendable GL. It both reduces the punishment enough to make the rewards worth the risk without creating massive skill-gaps and gives means of control that can contribute equally to undoing mistakes during flawed play and adding depth to optimal play. Otherwise, I wouldn't be bothering with this. It is not fun to argue about foundational elements.

My largest problem with GL is that it just gives us nothing to really look forward to or work towards. It's just there. It is nearly impossible to drop except when counting on a SSS at the end of a maxed out PB and suddenly lag spiking. That shouldn't be the case. We can strike a much better balance between something being stupidly fun and not too punishing for less capable players. Throwing out any possibility of a mechanic being fun just because it can be to some extent punishing to players not capable of higher APM is ridiculous. No job is going to reward an incapable player with near-peak performance, be it because of an inability to meet its APM requirements or forethought requirements or sequencing or whatever else. If "hit hard and really, really fast" is to be the motto of Monk, then it should feel like something we aspire to, not just get for free at a watered-down level.

That's not going to be possible, though, if we continue to drop all stacks at once, especially with no way to get them back quickly outside of PB (which, until DK changes are made, has only one use past perhaps the opener, and it's not to generate GL). What I'm asking for at the fundamental level is for the purpose of accomplishing the same sort of stuff being so often requested here, just without tossing out all the "spare" rope before walking into a pitfall.

I know manipulating speed is a good concept and it would be quite unique and rewarding. My problem is that I can't trust SE to make something with enough nuance in the rev ups or downs that doesn't lead to (after doing the math) to just stay at the highest speed tier because that's what SE would do if we're perfectly honest. BRD's soul arrow is an example of an ability that while it has nuance, you're better off using it at max than anything else between the min 20 points and cap.

Apex Arrow is not a good example of a nuance-capable gauge-skill, though by the mere fact that it is a GCD without a damage floor. Consider, if its damage floor had the same effective potency as Burst Shot when factoring in its chance at Refulgent Arrow, Apex Arrow could be used at any time without punishment. That's not a good thing, but it's also very easy to design, considering Apex Arrow comes after all HS/BS and RA buffs. It was very much a decision not to give it any base potency and only convert Soul Gauge, making the skill an at-cap nuke. It's not difficult to design something capable of complete flexibility; it's just not what they intended. They wanted a use-when-capped nuke and made a use-when-capped nuke. That it can be used slightly early is just a faint flexibility bonus for finishing off a boss who would otherwise die before you could get off Apex Arrow's potency bonus. Nuance would be somewhere in between, kind of like Pitch Perfect in an StB Crit meta comp wherein the recommended stack usage shifted with raid buffs, but less esoteric and leading to other interactions later in play rather than simply ending the line of decision then and there.

If you want something more comparable, just look at any of the granular gauges, such as Kenki or -again- HW era BotD. They're not quite there either, but at least they have a much closer design intent.

This. Remembering this wounds me.

Likewise.

[Kalise]

Why are you conflating how they currently work with my suggestions, wherein I completely changed how they work?

I've literally not seen any of your suggestions on them.

I'd assume there'd be here in this 27 page long thread? I'm not about to dig through that looking for something that is irrelevant to my point.

That is, currently, we have never had a choice in what stance we have used. With my changes to stances, we continue to have no choice in optimal play (But in optimal play, there are no choices. If there ever is a choice that's just button bloat), but then get 3 choices for sub-optimal play.

Not wanting to spend 3 buttons

Again, I highlighted that stances need only take up a single button.

It's almost as if you don't even bother to read posts and instead just spew whatever takes your fancy out?

It is not a matter of poison A or poison B.

That's true enough.

I merely came up with my concept for the stances to directly target one of the devs primary concerns. Hoping that with that particular issue out of their mind, they don't have to hold back the rest of the design.

Inb4 "OH BUTT IT DOESN'T PRECLUDE THIS!!!!eleven!!!"

Theoretically, no. But as has been shown throughout the entire history of this game across every single job the devs have an aversion for giving a job multiple systems with any sort of nuance. Heck, it's hard enough to get a job with a SINGLE system with any nuance.

Hoping that the devs will randomly decide to go against the entire way they have designed jobs for 6+ years and give MNK multiple systems with nuance seems absolutely ridiculous.

There is no ultimatum here.

I never said there was.

I merely said that to cover the simple stances, I suggested a change to Riddles that would effectively provide the same (Theoretical, given it has never existed in the first place) feeling of dancing between the 3 Stances of Earth, Wind and Fire.

You can have BOTH. You can have GL as an actual mechanic and have Riddle of ~ as an actual mechanic. They. Do. Not. Preclude. Each. Other. You can even stack additional GL mechanics on, say, its ramping up stacks. It's not just one or the other.

I'll point you towards my prior statement. Yes, technically, it IS possible for MNK's to get a GL mechanic, a Riddle mechanic, a Stance Swapping mechanic, a Chakra mechanic, a Ki mechanic, a combo mechanic and a meditation mechanic all at the same time.

But the likelyhood of that happening is slim to none. Getting even a single one in a decent state would be somewhat of a miracle. Let alone several.

Ignoring that I said "viable", not "optimal"...

But not ignoring that you keep bitching about "How we'd be forced into a single stance because of muh raid buffs and muh oGCD's and muh Demolish!!"

Which would only be true at optimal levels. As picking an alternate stance won't be trashing your DPS to the point of non-viability. Especially given that people are more frequently using bottom tier DPS jobs in world first groups and something as small as losing 1-5% overall damage during raid buff windows won't be dropping you down that far.

Heck, even your premise about this has yet to be proven, since we currently have a situation where FoF makes your Demolish and oGCD's stronger than 4 GL, but I have yet to see anyone actually utilize the "Stance Swapping" into Fire to utilize these skills that you talked about would be the case (As well as would cause a non-swappable stance to ultimately boil down to "The slowest one")

Instead, people are doing just fine pushing out logs that have MNK as the 4th highest DPS in the game (Behind SMN, BLM and SAM) without having to macro like crazy to go into Fire before every oGCD, Demolish and Raid Buff window.

[Shurrikhan]

Honestly, GL will always have a hard time being a mechanic so long as it's tied to any form of DPS increase, especially one that stacks up.

That depends entirely on the reward. Clearly even with a 30% bonus to oGCD damage and a relative ~47% increase to weaponskill damage over time during SB, it was still quite able to be utilized as a mechanic. Even now TK openers are viable.

We see this with NIN, DRG and BLM where their maintenance "Mechanics" are non-interactive. Where you press a button to toggle it on and then you forget about it.

Yeah, and they are a pitiful waste of a would-be mechanic and/or button. As buffs with no levels nor spending interactions, one has to wonder why their current version bothers to exist at all. But therein lies the question. Do you mercy-blow any and all of these mechanics because they've been so gutted, or do you revitalize them?

As far as speed manipulation goes, it's a universally hated mechanic. Not only have Monks been vocal about how awful it is, but back when AST had cards, people often expressed distaste over receiving The Arrow because of how the shift in speed would mess with their rotations. Well, this is speed manipulation in combat.

In combat, -- vs. ...what, out of combat? -- speed manipulation is hardly the issue. The issue is control. Getting an Arrow half-way through your rotation, when you were not ready for it and now have no way to utilize it, feels like poop because there's no way to utilize it even though it takes up part of your focus. It will consume mental resource at no gain. Having control over it, however, provides a very different story. For my own part, I loved it. It let me pull off even more would-be overextended rotations, allowing me to triple-Kick during PB before I had the SkS to do so by default, or allowing me to get in an extra Aeolian into TK window or skip Fire altogether on by BLM, each fun rotational differences. And with the number of BLMs who entered an AST party with "Hi. I'll be taking all your Arrows," that hardly seems unique to me.

One could propose a rework to the "Fists" that would enable people to select a speed of MNK they find the most comfortable. I.e. Earth is slow, Fire is medium and Wind is fast. With of course, the slower stances gaining increased %damage to compensate and make all 3 equal for DPS. This would also help alleviate the concern the devs have over the 4th GL stack and MNK becoming "Too fast" and having a rift between good and bad players widen since the bad players that cannot handle the high speed can instead opt for a lower speed that suits them.

While that might sound like a similar direction, it'd most likely nearly antithetical. There are only three ways such a system could go:

1. There are too few restrictions on stance changes to prevent someone from merely using high-damage-low-speed on each high damage-per-GCD skill and low-damage-high-speed on each skill with low damage-per-GCD (not including buff effects), forcing one to swap stances as often as possible to better juice Demolish and Bootshine.
2. The stances are too restricted to have any useful additional effects, and likely thwart gameplay that, too any player, would seem an obvious use of the stances, making them feel unnecessarily bloated.
3. Some miraculous hybrid of the two that manages to axe either side's issues -- possible, but horribly unlikely.

That's why I'd prefer that stances remain more or less their own things, albeit far, far less niche (or dominant, in the case of Fire until GL4 and Wind thereafter) than they are now. They can have an impact on speed, sure, but making them only a stick shift for speeds will end up with a Cataclysm-era Warrior debacle (whereby every skill was just macro-bound to a stance-change) with unnecessary bloat.

We can have just as much choice and flexibility in speed without needing that bloated approach to stances. Consider my oft-repeated suggestion of having GL work like HW-era BotD, where all relative potency builds GL duration (called "Ki") but only Coeurl skills move you up to the next GL level (with GL duration at or above 10 seconds providing the next level's bonus to the Coeurl skill that levels you up) and GL duration (Ki) can be spent to add additional effects to your damaging abilities. If you want to go the stance-specific route, let's say that Wind will "rush" the ability, making it usable before its cooldown is ready at cost based on its potency-per-second time number of seconds rushed, Fire empowering the ability, for a damage buff at variable consumption, and Earth "fortifying" it, causing its damage to grant rapidly fading damage absorption, which grants bonus potency upon consumption that does not stack with positional potency bonuses (thus effectively guaranteeing positionals and leading to seriously chunky Bootshine crits). In such a case, there's no need to stance-dance constantly just to milk particular skills; instead, it's all about the flow and sync, allowing you to align the perfect Internal Release, Perfect Balance, Riddle of Fire, or what have you.

Now bring back the suggestion that GL stacks should fall off one at a time. For context, let us say that we go back to the old 5% Damage and 5% Attack Speed per stack. When increasing GL level, the speed at which GL drains over time and per ability enhancement (the spending on which is completely optional in Wind if you go the stance-route, or at all times if you do not) likewise increases by 10%, compounding (for a 1.1, 1.22, 1.33x, or perhaps even a harsher 1.1, 1.3, 1.5x, consumption). It therefore become a risk-reward system: Do I want to remain in GL3 just for my auto-attacks, Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick, and Snap Punch, or would it be worth spending Ki now, dropping a level, and then maxing it again before my next Coeurl skill for full Bootshine, True Strike, and Demolish damage? Unlike TK, you don't only have a mathed-out single answer that utterly changes your playflow; you have granular control, all without even needing any additional keys.

In such a system, intentionally overspending on additional effects for your abilities could easily and smoothly down-level you, yet that could be used tactically rather than as a fail condition. If you would otherwise outpace your Twin/Dragon/Demolish buffs and have no abilities left in that rotational string to benefit from GL's damage buff, you could freely downlevel yourself in order to time those reapplications more closely, neither clipping nor delaying Demolish, etc, all while conserving Ki.

No extra buttons would be necessary just to manipulate your speed: you'd have constant, granular control -- just through your plethora of core abilities (including a returned SP, HF, and the whole gamut).

* In this, TK would be a raw Ki spender, worthwhile at the end of CDs, before going into downtime, or before PB. That said, padding enough Ki (GL duration) onto your highest stack could technically cause it to have no cost to GL stacks, either dipping down a level only just before a Coeurl skill with 10+ seconds duration (i.e. giving the benefit of the next benefit on that Coeurl skill as well) or leaving you with a sliver of duration left even on your highest stack. That wouldn't typically be optimal, but it'd be damn close.

In addition to this, you could also tweak Tornado Kick to where it's usable at any level of GL, but its damage scales up with each stack. So one can maintain low stacks if they wish to try and captialize on Crit buffs *Cough*Bring back Internal Release*Cough*

I think those two things would be helpful indeed no matter what direction Monk takes.

[Kalise]

That depends entirely on the reward. Clearly even with a 30% bonus to oGCD damage and a relative ~47% increase to weaponskill damage over time during SB, it was still quite able to be utilized as a mechanic. Even now TK openers are viable.

From what I've read, TK openers are DPS losses.

Also, I mentioned, that the only way they become a mechanic, is when you can basically skip it by quick stacking to the point of there being no actual reason to have TK consume GL in the first place.

But therein lies the question. Do you mercy-blow any and all of these mechanics because they've been so gutted, or do you revitalize them?

I guess it would depend entirely on if you can think of any way to make them interesting mechanics despite their innately passive nature. Without giving way to clunky design for the sake of making them "Interesting" (I.e. What would most likely occur with Fire IV Mage)

speed manipulation is hardly the issue. The issue is control.

And yet, many Monks have complained about the slowdown on RoF as well as the slowdown post TK.

Both things are controlled. You know exactly when you're going to suffer the slowdown, since you induce it.

But it feels crappy either way, especially when one of the main draws to MNK is its faster attack speed (2.5s GCD's suuuuuuck)

While that might sound like a similar direction, it'd most likely nearly antithetical. There are only three ways such a system could go:

Or, option 4: Stances are restricted in the same way as AST's sects, in that you cannot change them in combat.

Thus, people find the stance they like the most and pick that. Instead of being arbitrarily stuck sitting in Fire/Wind 24/7 depending on what is SE's FotM mandatory stance (With the slight exception that is current Fire while at 1-3 stacks and old "Switch to Wind for literally 1 skill for free 2 GL")

Stance dancing is an unneccesary when literally the core rotation of the job IS stance dancing. If element based "Stance Dancing" is desired, I'd rather it come in the form of the Riddles. Provided Riddle of Earth and Riddle of Wind become something notably interesting to contrast Riddle of Fire's flat damage boost.

We can have just as much choice and flexibility in speed without needing that bloated approach to stances.

Except, your suggestion doesn't help poor players who can't function at high speed. They will HAVE to be jumping up and down in speed in order to utilize their Ki. Heck, everyone will, including speed demons.

It's not a particularly elegant design to make people have such varied speed, while in theory, yes you can open up a lot of decision making in doing so, one might argue you open too much where you might end up in the same situation as SE's designed MNK where you have no idea if you're supposed to be attacking fast or slow or some mix of both.

It honestly sounds like such a system would serve to piss off everyone, except specifically you.

Not to mention, it will get mathed out what the optimal rotation will be. No matter what, people will figure out whether its better to spend Ki or sit on high GL stacks and then you're left with the same "TK Optimizing" scenario, only you've put MNK through the wringer to get it.

When, there are far more ways to add interesting mechanics to MNK, especially if GL stack preservation isn't mandatory for passive DPS boosts (Since then GL maintenance skills can be repurposed). Not to mention the potential for a Chakra rework to make it something other than an oGCD that has an RNG CD that also causes MNK's to be slaves to Crit (Thus, also have the "Bard" issue where they go from horrible to amazing for DPS over the course of an expansion due to the scaling of Crit on gear)

[Shurrikhan]

Also, I mentioned, that the only way they become a mechanic, is when you can basically skip it by quick stacking to the point of there being no actual reason to have TK consume GL in the first place.

Except that, even with RoW massively overtuned, it wasn't always the best choice for how to spend Tackle, it had vastly different interactions with or without PB, and back then we couldn't maintain GL indefinitely so TK still had a place outside of RoW and PB. It functioned on its own, functioned better with RoW, a bit better with PB, and better still with the two together, and it felt great for exactly that reason. It really brought the kit together, but not in the half-assed way that RoE and Anatman have where they function as bloat, existing only to invalidate something else. That TK was worth far more in the presence of RoW and PB did not remove its value outside of PB and RoW.

Or, option 4: Stances are restricted in the same way as AST's sects, in that you cannot change them in combat.

That's literally option 2. One that's also been shat on since AST was introduced and was forced to be a SCH- or WHM-substitute rather than wholly its own job.

Except, your suggestion doesn't help poor players who can't function at high speed.

They will HAVE to be jumping up and down in speed in order to utilize their Ki. Heck, everyone will, including speed demons.

No, they wouldn't. I was quite explicit in saying that overspending, the same thing that would drop BotD entirely during HW (but here only reduces you by a GL level at a time) reduces your speed, not any and all use of Ki.

Think of it like Tsubame-Gaeshi filler/rush GCDs. Without raid buffs, "ad hoc" play, especially at speed demon levels, is just as good as aligning perfectly to TG's cooldown. As more raid buffs come into play, syncing to them will naturally matter more -- just as it does for every job in the game -- but it's still not going to suddenly make a massive difference in performance. Even at the highest level of play, based on gear type one can choose how they play with only minimal change to performance. That's what I'm talking about here: putting control into the hands of the player, allowing for more flexibly timed burst, player-created peaks, and so forth, so that engagement remain high between CD periods rather than following the typical WAR/DRK burst-sleep-burst-sleep model.

Playing at full speed 100% of the time, especially in a comp not super dependent on snapshotting into raid damage windows, is still likely to net you 95%+ performance or so.

...one might argue [if] you open too much [decision making] you might end up in the same situation as SE's designed MNK where you have no idea if you're supposed to be attacking fast or slow or some mix of both.

What, exactly, is the problem with having some freedom to choose, some balance around the kit that could present two choices as near enough to equal that you might want to consult a guide for the minutiae of each's benefits or do what you want?

The only pitfall here would be if there was a clearly wrong answer presented in the same way as everything else (a la Ice Mage), despite making full use of the kit. But, there's been no example of that. Every "wrong" but sane answer (one that still makes full use of a kit, apart from whatever is for a time laughably underpowered, such as using Flamethrower for direct damage rather than Heat) has resulted in minute losses despite offering far more breadth of play.

We've seen it in Fuma vs. Raiton, where Raiton is best used to prevent clipping Shadowfang, except when nearing TCJ and/or where less potency clipping on SF is prevented than the potency in the difference between a final Aeolian before a Jump or just missing it. We've seen it in BLM's use of Thunder. Is BLM's identity destroyed just because it may have periods where Thunder is less worth maintaining? Is it wrecked because not everyone will immediately know whether they should use Thunder always, never, in certain circumstances, or in all but certain circumstances? These are precisely the things that offer jobs their skill ceiling and a sense of really and progressively learning a job. To throw all those out the window just because it causes people to question how they play is ridiculous. They should question how they play. That's a large part of the fun of any job.

And let's be clear: I am not advocating that one should have to obsess over decisions of GL. I merely want it to have actual decisions that one can make in regards to its use, thereby offering flexibility in timing and scrapping bloat and anti-QoL in favor of more efficient and manipulable design.

It's four birds with one stone:

• we get back forking rotations and thereby rotational variance and returning the ability to deal with positioning through preemption rather than merely through positionals-negating bloat skills;
• we get back the ability to sync our rotations to CDs, bypassing the awkward timing issues otherwise forced by all but certain SkS tiers and melee downtime;
• we negate the need for bloat and anti-QoL (e.g. FS spam) skills for GL and reinvigorate GL-dependent skills without having to remove decision-making by separating them from interactions with core mechanics or making them a mere side-effect of normal rotation;
• we get back GL as something that feels good to maintain (e.g. making it at least a little difficult to maintain, say, GL4 when having to move about, without making it so punishing to lose it, since it'd be lost only a stack at a time). This would be especially lucrative if do something like the frequently requested Chakra Gates ("Rock Lee mode" or what-have-you) allowing access to extreme speeds for as long as we can keep feeding it now that it wouldn't utterly crush you to lose GL and drop back to normal speed or so.

Simple as that. I'm not asking for a grand change here, only that we go ahead and use the tools already given to us when they can be so lucrative.

Not to mention, it will get mathed out what the optimal rotation will be.

Which has no effect on diversity of play so long as the circumstances behind play aren't limited (as TK windows mostly were) solely to CDs with zero interactions with other circumstances. There would be optimal rotational strings, but no one optimal speed or behavior that would divest you of all other means of play.

One need look no further than Double-Boot/True vs. Fracture/ToD per Demolish vs. ToD only while alternating post-reapplication Demolishes and clipped Demolishes in previous iterations of Monk play. Or look at Fuma usage on Ninja, or filler/rush usage on Samurai, especially at higher speeds. There is no one constant answer. They are context-dependent -- on downtime, on how long the fight will go on, on jump timings. That optimal play existed in no way restricted what could be used over a longer span of time, only which ought to be used in that particular 15, 18, 20, 24, or 30-second span while keeping in mind something some minute or two in the future.

There will always be optimal play. But if it reduces what skills you effectively have access to or what decisions need to be in the context of a encounter itself or the happenings therein, there is a problem with the toolkit. No amount of fatalism would make that any less lackluster of design.

You yourself have mentioned this time after time in the context of whether customization is possible. Yes, external balance will give us a best choice. Should we therefore remove all jobs not in the absolute highest performing speedrun composition? Maybe we could just rotate between which jobs are made available each month so we still see them all, but no one feels "pressured" to play the optimal ones, since those would be the only choices? Surely not.

The only difference here is that this is internal balance, the balance between choices that can be made in combat rather than outside of content (i.e. by choice of class, gear, or talents). Should we remove the ability to hit a 3-eyed-Geirskogul before BfB is ready just because it wouldn't be optimal in most raid settings? Should SB have removed Fuma just because it's going to be better at events 1, 2, 3, 5, and 7 for this character in this fight while Raiton would be better at 4, 6, and 8 and players might not want to bother figuring out what's best? Surely not.

I want to balance for a larger variety of playstyles and make available (again, in many cases) a greater breadth of gameplay to the job. That's it. Therein, you could happily stay 24/7 speed demon at no negative effect prior to speedrunning Savage content. As for me, I'll probably be spending the majority of time as a speed demon, but occasionally banking for raid buffs because I just really like having the ability to sync my skills in smoothly order to deal with otherwise awkward SkS tiers. I probably will bite a bit more than I can chew, complexity-wise, and end up performing almost exactly the same. That's all there is to the suggestion: a desire for greater breadth of play and to eliminate a number of core problems in one of the simplest ways possible. Fix GL, and you fix four other issues that have since sprouted over the expansions. Fix, rather than leave yet another part half-done just to throw more random junk into the toolkit.

None of that precludes what can be done afterwards. It does not preclude fun new Chakra interactions. It does not preclude elemental effects. It does not preclude yet further GL mechanics. It merely doesn't leave anything to rot and does not scrap depth

[Kalise]

back then we couldn't maintain GL indefinitely so TK still had a place outside of RoW and PB.

You mean spending GL stacks on TK when you're guaranteed to lose GL stacks due to transition timing?

Such mechanics. Many interactions. Wow.

That's literally option 2. One that's also been shat on since AST was introduced and was forced to be a SCH- or WHM-substitute rather than wholly its own job.

Except, AST's sects are complained about because they simply offer AST the ability to become "WHM-lite" or "SCH-lite" instead of AST being its own unique job. Not the inability to switch in combat, but the fact that AST itself wasn't designed as a unique job.

With the stances, you still pick between "Monk", "Monk" and "Monk". You're not becoming a "DRG-lite" or "NIN-lite" as you're still fundamentally and uniquely a Monk irregardless of which stance you use. The only difference between them is are you a MNK that punches fast or a MNK that punches hard?

No, they wouldn't. I was quite explicit in saying that overspending, the same thing that would drop BotD entirely during HW (but here only reduces you by a GL level at a time) reduces your speed, not any and all use of Ki.

GL duration (Ki) can be spent to add additional effects to your damaging abilities.

You literally even highlighted the fact that you said Ki can be spent.

Then implied: Do I want to remain in GL3 just for my auto-attacks, Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick, and Snap Punch, or would it be worth spending Ki now, dropping a level, and then maxing it again before my next Coeurl skill for full Bootshine, True Strike, and Demolish damage?

If spending Ki doesn't drop a level... Then why would you not simply sit at GL3 and only spend enough Ki to stay at GL3 constantly? Therefore not only maintaining full speed and damage, but also benefitting from the Ki usage with maybe times during burst windows where dumping all your GL stacks into Ki would be worth it (AKA: Exactly the same situation as with TK)

What, exactly, is the problem with having some freedom to choose, some balance around the kit that could present two choices as near enough to equal that you might want to consult a guide for the minutiae of each's benefits or do what you want?

The problem is when the choices are too unclear so that it feels unintuitive to actually play. When you don't know whether you should be doing one of many things, and feel like you have to consult a guide in order to figure out how to play properly, rather than optimally.

Much like how TK usage in StB was. In regular play, it was unintuitive because you'd use it, lose all your GL stacks and feel like crap while you rebuilt it. Only to read a guide and find out that you're supposed to stance dance into FoW to pop RoW or use PB to try and negate its downsides.

Jobs should feel intuitive to play, with the minutia of choices taking place when trying to optimize. Someone should have a reasonable understanding of what they're supposed to be doing when playing the job and how to utilize the kit as it is presented to them.

[FoxCh40s]

I see all of these discussions, and wish tanks and healers could have these in depth discussions about the game and mechanics.

Really, you can see the disparity in the design of the jobs just by reading these posts and comparing them to healer and tank posts.

You may now continue your regularly scheduled discussion of Monk, and how it needs to be reworked.

[Vendalwind]

I haven't piped in on this conversation. I'm someone who likes the idea of MNK but has never enjoyed how it plays since ARR. (which was the only time I mained MNK) So my opinion is not well informed. Rather than restate what I've said before I'll just link my thread here again since this conversation has intrigued me and some of the things mentioned I address in my rework attempt.

Yes I know some people will hate it.

Also please don't necro my thread, Just respond here. I know not every Monk main likes my ideas for the class so just read that first post as a free wheeled set of ideas.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-dmg-nerf-idea.

I'll also say that personally... I'm generally with Shurrikhan here. I want to see more from elemental fist stances.

[BunnyChain]

Playing MNK on and off since 2.0 and recently starting to play it in savage, I've got to say it's really disappointing. It didn't evolve at all, got simpler and has overall more restrictions than before, like skills being removed and added back to higher levels gated behind RNG crit.

Greased Lightning is still awful to manage, what's the point of it? It's braindead easy to manage now, due to Form Shift changes, and provides nearly "nothing" but faster attack speed.
The niche skill, what's up with that... and since ShB "but wait there is more" another niche skill??

Looking at the other jobs, MNK's issues and general lack of attention becomes even more apparent.
DRG has a nice "flow" to it, you make use of all your skills and you are rewarded for keeping up your buff.
NIN has an equally pointless speed gimmick, but you again make use of all your skills and everything comes nicely together.
SAM, I haven't gotten to 80 yet, is similar here with easy to re-apply speed and damage buff.

The only? job gated behind double-layer RNG for one of its skills. Which sometimes varies greatly between pulls. Of no fault of your own you will just perform worse, that does not spark joy.

Very punishing on death, assuming you use Perfect Balance - which you should, you will either go through the painful climb of 12 GCDs or stand there like a dumbass and meditate, plus a much shorter timer on your clutch buff compared to other jobs, that does not spark joy.

Limited mobility, and 0 ranged attacks, it feels slow and clunky when you have to disengage - no joy spark.

Not one but two niche skills, maybe we'll make it to 3 next expansion , that barely get any use, this also does not spark joy.

Monk was always a little underplayed but now it is the least played DPS job. Like, perhaps you should take a look at it SE??