Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

I don’t think Sora meant TK being a “proc” as something random; it would be a reward for keeping max gl stacks for X amount of seconds (30 or 45 sound good).

Exactly what I meant, I was going to reply with many of the other things you stated like the chakras being 7 (14) in the job quest and they should stick to the lore rather than outside references. But I just gave up in my response after seeing Val still wants chakra procs to be RNG albeit at a higher rate, which is still stupid to me, just remove it and have positionals give chakras on certain weaponskills. Then it can be consistent and we don't need to fear drifting EF outside of raid buffs due to TFC taking priority in BH windows.

I don't disagree with everything Val said, I was preaching Axe Kick's inclusion into PvE back in HW days along with others but that feedback went ignored (as does all MNK feedback, even the JP players are tired of being ignored and neglected).

Honestly though PB being a set 6 weapon skills would be such a nice QoL. Because that's what every MNK is striving for and it's only cucking those with high latency. I understand the optimizations Val is talking about with FoF to realign Demo with RoF as I've done it, but it's against MNK staying fast so you intentionally slowdown, I honestly can't stand that 6SS, TK, Anatman and FoF optimizations force slowdown on MNK or to stand still it frustrates me that MNK feels like the only melee where the abilities actively fight you to go fast.

A form shift animation change would be nice, check out early HW footage of form shift it literally sounded like you were breaking vases underneath your feet when you stomped lmao. It had such a ridiculous sound effect in its first iteration.

[ValStormbreaker]

snip

That's not actually what I was saying. I use a high speed opener which is viable, albeit not AS powerful, and is a variation on the Anatman opener that reduces the Anatman problems to a minor annoyance more than anything. No third-party tool use or anything, and I never switch back to FoF mid-rotation or do any of that. Imagine if the Anatman opener was buttery smoothe and had zero jankiness to it, was actually straightforward and didn't require any double inputs, with the only slight annoyance being from a possible and relatively minor pause for Anatman, which half the time is a non-issue. It feels so good to use, and it's not only viable in Savage content, and seems to magically line up with all the fight mechanics of every raid, but it also works really well for TEA without having to remeld or alter my rotation and I can keep consistent uptime.

What I was saying with regard to FoF is that players who have higher pings, as well as players who may have lower pings but just don't like to go fast, have the option to keep the damage output at a lower speed. You have to remember, the overall population of raiders in this game is small, so you will have players who want to dip their feet into a job but aren't necessarily going to be raiders. This is an accessibility option for those players.

My biggest suggestion 6.0-wise would be to separate MNK and SAM gear so they can be balanced separately. Right now, since they're shackled by gear, and are the ONLY melee jobs to share a gear set, when one is balanced nicely, the other winds up being total garbage, and when they're both balanced equally they both sit in the "mediocre" territory. It's like a see-saw of nightmares for both jobs. I'm willing to bet it's a headache for the devs as well, so it'd just be easiest to give SAM its own gear set and call it a day. Would probably work wonders for the cosmetics, too, since there's very little you can do with a middle ground for SAM and MNK glamour that doesn't just look ill-fitting on both.

I'm still waiting for my Saint Seiya crossover, Yoshi-P! :P

[ValStormbreaker]

I come from the fighting game community, so I like the idea of TK running on a meter management system, and I like how chakra is used for tFC and Enlightenment. What I don't quite like is that dropping GL stacks slows you down, and both GL stacks and chakra are an all-or-nothing sort of thing, so it's not like you can store them up for more powerful versions of the attacks (like EX attacks in Street Fighter). I don't mind SSS, because at my SkS, if you use it to disengage, by the time you re-engage you can use your GCD moves again, so it lines up very perfectly.

It really feels like 90% of the problems most players are experiencing with Anatman, SSS and TK are the result of slowing the job down for more power. And I get it, for clearing DPS checks this gives you better output... but it just feels clumsy and unnatural, so my rule of thumb is, no matter how much DPS it gives you, it if feels wrong, maybe that's not what you're SUPPOSED to be doing, even if you CAN. BUT, most of the talk concerning MNK is an outgrowth of very specific rotations people are doing at very specific skill speeds in accordance with the current meta, so there hasn't been a whole lot of experimentation encouraged as a result of the people who are driving the rhetoric and what they want to popularize. It's not popular to bring up that the double TK opener is still possible under the right conditions, and that its problems are minor and easily fixed in a few minutes with adjusting a potency value here and a recast timer there, so sometimes I feel like I'm the only one bringing this stuff up. At higher speeds, DPS optimization comes from being able to more seamlessly bounce from mechanic to mechanic and greed more comfortably with far less risk, so long as you can handle the speed it requires (which for me is still far too slow). I wish more people would try to spread playing the job like I do, and maybe they'd find a lot more comfort in it compared to what the Balance has been spreading. But hey, I'm not some celebrity in the community so nobody wants to hear what I have to say, even if people would really enjoy giving it a shot...

I actually recently tried out Black Desert Online's "Mystic" job, and OH BOY do I wish MNK in XIV played like that!

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Val, you talk as if Somersault and Axe Kick weren't already requested to death for SB back in HW. They aren't doing it. What good is gaining a chakra from somersault when you are still at the mercy of chakras from RNG especially during BH windows? You will without a doubt miss out on the chakra multiple times unless they A) increase the chakra cap to allow small overflow or B) rework how chakras are gained so that it can be consistent.

What we're asking for by raising the chakra cap to 5 is to fit the LORE of the game. Not just a reference to far eastern culture. As well to not punish us for gaining extra chakras while already capped since they aren't in our control, especially during BH.

[Yneko]

This is going to be long, so:

TL/DR: Brainstorms and arguments are good for us as comunity. but the problem is much deeper than that.

Now to the point:

I do not konw how to react to Val's posts as he:

1) on one hand wants everyone to get a good IP and VPN (which is not possible on PS4) and

2) wants different playstyles to be possible (they are talking about TK openers but those are a huge damage loss right now not only comparing to other monks but other melee too).

But their post have some point: They are promoting the CHOICE, while the reality is, there is no choice. Back in 4.2+ you could ignore TK rotation and still be viable (or only do TK at last second or RoF and nobody would notice), now, pretty much, you have one viable rotation and, depending on your ping+skill+party comp+add ons, 3 openers, with anatman being the best "all round" one (even the best choice for PS4 players). If we do not count "delaying buffs" to line them up, we are the only job whose performance relies on decisions made 10s pre-pull.

For me, the question RIGHT NOW is not what we want, but what DEVELOPERS WANT. It is clear, that we are abusing the job's design to either:

1) get the best performance or
2) get the best experience

and since those two are so different I think we should just ast the devs one question:

WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO?

and from the answer we can get giong.

We thought they want us to TK.
They made it more difficult.

We thoght they want us to hit positionals correctly.
They gave RoE a new trait.

And the list goes on...

I agreee with Val in many things, in many I do not.
I agree with many players posting in these forums, in many I do not.
The only thing I am 100% sure is - I do not know what devs want us to do and if we are doing it.
I even do not know if the PB burst isn't another Ninja "players found out a better rotation, so we changed potencies" which happened TWICE during HW.

EXAMPLE: double-true rotation I think they do not want to. It makes no sense to drop a buff and it looks like oversight from miles away.

Just tell us so we can give you a relevant response.
Shoha on SAM. SAMs were unhappy and they got one change in 5.1 (a big one) and another in 5.2 (getting freaking gauge!!!)
Why we can get this, please?

Just tell us what you want so we can tell you why it is not fun...

[Imshail]

If the previous patches didn't already clue you in I'd say there's not much of a chance of the devs actually listening, the job is a mess and will probably remain a mess in the future because the devs simply don't care enough to fix even minor issues let alone blatant ones.

[Eva-Shogouki]

And shouldn't have to wait 'til 6.0 or later to get it.

As much as I'd LOVE a Monk rework I'm not sure it's likely to happen during ShB.

[SpeckledBurd]

As much as I'd LOVE a Monk rework I'm not sure it's likely to happen during ShB.

It most likely isn't, there's a small chance for something in 5.3 but thats typically the point where they say that any changes will be delayed until the next expansion.

However to quote myself from earlier in the thread on this exact matter:

I don’t think Monk needs a full rework either, but waiting until 6.0 for any kinds of changes to Monks kit is literally making Monk wait two full expansions before there's a chance for the players to be satisfied with it. That's insane, especially when so many other jobs have gotten substantial changes in 5.1. Some might say that Monk has seen fixes already, but the 5.05 stuff only fixed a small handful of the problems with the job. They finally fixed the Riddle of Fire slow which is undeniably a good change, but it can't be forgotten that they for whatever reason intended to leave that in for 5.X until the playerbase expressed its displeasure. But largely it was just done to make Monk playable in dungeons with the Formshift changes, because 5.0 Monk in dungeons was miserable. Meanwhile 5.1 stuff flat out made one of the few remaining use cases for Anatman feel awful every time and by and large just reversed any goodwill 5.05 gave Monk.

The fact of the matter is Stormblood Monk was so disliked that the devs admitted that it was a misstep that dissatisfied people in all of the Shadowbringers prerelease press discussion that brought it up, and everything they produced for Monk on Shadowbringers Launch was even worse to the point where it was the worst received DPS by a huge margin. They're basically two full expansions behind with the job at this point and if it isn't a priority for them to fix it ASAP then it should be.

[Noctisnine]

Well I've been trying to play either dragoon or ninja in savage content after just playing monk for like 2 years and let me tell you its rough! Monk movement speed being naturally fast due to fist of wind and shoulder tackle plus riddle of earth buff is quite nice and make the fights so much easier, I just wanted to have some impactful skills like stardive or midare, six sided star is so underwhelming, the best skill we have is tornado kick and we barely use it...It's so sad to play monk.

[Imshail]

I really wish they'd give whoever was behind monk in PVP the reigns on the job design of monk in PVE, the job ironically enough seems to flow better in PVP than it does in PVE