Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[SpeckledBurd]

I don't know why we're losing ourselves over if the feedback is accurate, succinct or verbose and senseless. There's plenty of things to talk about when it comes to MNK because the issues of the job have existed for basically ever. The summary from a few posts ago isn't exactly eye opening nor lists anything new.


Everyone who plays MNK wants something new and while none of us entirely agree on which direction the job should go. We do agree it needs to change a lot of what currently exists.

At this point it almost feels like some of the issues with providing feedback on Monk is exhaustion with providing the feedback itself after having to do it for so long and resignation that it won't be taken. Some of us have been giving feedback here on the OF regarding aspects of the job since Heavensward, and while some problems with it have been addressed its only when its part of broader game design changes. TP Burn and Aggro for example, were huge problems in Heavensward, and it was only when TP was a non-existent problem for everything (in single target at least) in Stormblood did it stop being a problem, while Aggro didn't get fixed on Monk until Shadowbringers. Even when they finally gave Monk an aggro cut the job was penalized for it because we had to eat a Forbidden Chakra for it. For every job barring Samurai aggro control just happened as a matter of course for, and Samurai's cost for cutting aggro was a Third Eye proc (but not gauge, so it was extremely minor).

I can't blame people for not only being extremely negative about the job, but not even bothering to provide feedback for it anymore or switching to a different job entirely. In 6 years of playing it I can think of two patches where they actually made substantial good changes to the job, and one of them got reversed because people dared to use Tornado Kick instead of them changing how Tornado Kick worked. The rest of the changes have just been appeals at doing something to the job in the form of Minor potency buffs that didn't make the job competitive or fix its major issues (every buff in Heavensward), total missteps in design which took way too long to fix or still haven't been fixed (Stormblood Monk), or changes that are part of broader systemic changes that still somehow miss the mark because of how dumb they are in the way they work (Aggro Cut Purification, the existence of Riddle of Earth and Anatman).

[Mahrze]

snip

I don't disagree with the frustration or any of the feelings. But if we're arguing that either of the feedback choices are futile, arguing the futility of it all is equally as bad. I am aware we are all just spit balling things and seeing whatever sticks, be it from references of other RPGs or gameplay from other main line FF games as something they could draw inspiration from and improve MNK which, like one new person said it in NN on my server: "MNK feels like NIN beta".

[SpeckledBurd]

I don't disagree with the frustration or any of the feelings. But if we're arguing that either of the feedback choices are futile, arguing the futility of it all is equally as bad. I am aware we are all just spit balling things and seeing whatever sticks, be it from references of other RPGs or gameplay from other main line FF games as something they could draw inspiration from and improve MNK which, like one new person said it in NN on my server: "MNK feels like NIN beta".

I wasn't trying to say to say that it's futile either, just that it feels that way after so many years of complaints either falling on deaf ears (or worse, complaints being acknowledged and nothing being done). And that feeling brought about by the devs indifference to feedback might have had an effect on peoples willingness to provide feedback.

[SpeckledBurd]

Well at the risk of double posting, here's some more data from the most recent Lucky Banchou census on what active players are using. The results are unsurprising to say the least.



Monk is the least played job right now and the least leveled job at the level cap. Like checking the number of parses uploaded to FFlogs it's still an external third party metric, but since it's based on active characters its probably a little more accurate.

[Shurrikhan]

Well at the risk of double posting, here's some more data from the most recent Lucky Banchou census on what active players are using. The results are unsurprising to say the least.



Monk is the least played job right now and the least leveled job at the level cap. Like checking the number of parses uploaded to FFlogs it's still an external third party metric, but since it's based on active characters its probably a little more accurate.

I could have sworn Ninja was above the lowest quarter when Shadowbringers launched... For all the hype its rework has garnered, I'd have thought it'd have risen.

AST, WAR, BRD, and MNK are exactly as you'd expect, sadly.

[VenKitsune]

The funny thing is that i enjoyed 2.0 MNK way more than the SB or SHB MNK. They do need to atleast look on how to improve it if nothing else.

[Ultimatecalibur]

The funny thing is that i enjoyed 2.0 MNK way more than the SB or SHB MNK. They do need to atleast look on how to improve it if nothing else.

One thing I've noticed is that the "core" Monk rotation has existed mostly unchanged since 2.0: Opo-Opo alternates between Dragonkick and Bootshine, Raptor alternates between Twin Snakes and True Strike, and Coeurl does a rotation of Demolish->Snap Punch-> Snap Punch. During ARR and HW getting the gcd down below 2.1 let you intermix a Touch of Death every 30s while maintaining everything else and you could replace True strike with One-Ilm Punch in the rare case you wanted an enemy's buff (such as stone skin) removed.

When Touch of Death was removed in the great DoT purge of Stormblood they really should have added in 2 "formless" weaponskills that could be intermixed into the core rotation. Instead Monkmostly ended up with a bunch ogcds which were "enhanced" versions of existing ogcds.

[Shurrikhan]

One thing I've noticed is that the "core" Monk rotation has existed mostly unchanged since 2.0: Opo-Opo alternates between Dragonkick and Bootshine, Raptor alternates between Twin Snakes and True Strike, and Coeurl does a rotation of Demolish->Snap Punch-> Snap Punch. During ARR and HW getting the gcd down below 2.1 let you intermix a Touch of Death every 30s while maintaining everything else and you could replace True strike with One-Ilm Punch in the rare case you wanted an enemy's buff (such as stone skin) removed.

When Touch of Death was removed in the great DoT purge of Stormblood they really should have added in 2 "formless" weaponskills that could be intermixed into the core rotation. Instead Monkmostly ended up with a bunch ogcds which were "enhanced" versions of existing ogcds.

To be fair, until 5.x, there were always distinct higher-speed rotational strings, such as via

• "Demo-drop" rotations in ARR (whereby DK was permitted to drop before Demolish and Twin before Dragon Kick itself to a loss of 36 bonus potency in exchange for 70 additional potency via an added Bootshine and True Strike per Demolish for a net gain of 34 potency minus 10% of any AAs or oGCDs that might occur over that period, making it effectively like any other positional, but in rotational form and requiring more foresight) and
• FracToD strings in HW to minimize clipping and delay on the 21s Demolish.

5.x is the first time we've been forced into just one one rotational string ad nauseum, let alone Double-True without including Double-Boot to make the repositioning far less awkward.

[Ramura_Sono]

Why shut down discussion on reworks in your own thread requesting... a complete rework?

Your response was basically telling the people who feel their feedback is meaningless that its the fault of players providing overly broad feedback. Which is simply untrue. Telling them to rehash the feedback they feel has been consistently ignored isn't exactly gonna get them to start spewing more out.

The main issues with Monk are easily broken down into three broad areas.

1. A stagnant and uninteresting rotation.
2. An overabundance of overly situational and underutilized skills.
3. A lack of mobility options.

Which can all of course be broken down more precisely. Both broad feedback and precise feedback can and should be taken into account with any rework. Likewise, identifying precise parts of a kit that just don't truly add anything to the job - locking effects behind fist stances didin't resolve the issue of stances themselves being bloat or asinine activation requirements such as RoE needing to take HP damage to proc it's effect and determining how and if they should be changed and reworked to fit not only within the resolution of broader Job issues, but within the mantra and broader design of the game itself.

Solving precise issues (we want to use SSS/TK more) within broader issues (We have too many situational skills) can be part of a resolution for other issues as well (we use SSS / TK more, This has resulted in our rotation changing) rather than hyper focusing on some precise issue and resolution without thought towards how the result fits into the overall job design which is arguably how we've ended up at the state we are.

Suggesting reworks that add needless complexity in an attempt to justify bloat skills, or that involve a reworking of core game mechanics themselves don't exactly foster discussion when one is ignoring the mantra of "the removal of overly situational and niche skills" and is just more of the same thing we've disliked from precious iterations of monk. The other is just trying to speculate a rework outside of the games core design. It took TWO years to get RoF changed. That's changing two numbers on one skill. That's changing and testing one job. A rework that changes the way the game works at it's core requires testing every job, changing numbers on every job. A rework requiring such things exists far outside the realm of possibility, and thus discussion, for many players.


Having sensible additions to our kit ( rewards for landing positionals or maintaining our maintenance buff ) end up as part of other jobs, neither of which revolved around them as part of their core class mechanic/identity, and then having the idea of monk getting the same thing shot down because homogeneity is somehow bad on top of seeing issues we've suffered with for literally years both get acquired by and resolved for other jobs in a matter of months has understandably made many monk players jaded.

As far as the "woe is me our feedback is futile" goes, at this point it's probably a more effective vehicle for change to let the devs know just how great our disappointment and how little our trust and faith in them is. If an entire community essentially feels their feedback doesn't matter, you've made a big misstep as a developer.

[SpeckledBurd]

When Touch of Death was removed in the great DoT purge of Stormblood they really should have added in 2 "formless" weaponskills that could be intermixed into the core rotation. Instead Monkmostly ended up with a bunch ogcds which were "enhanced" versions of existing ogcds.

Not even that, we lost more oGCDs than anything and we haven't gotten anything to replace them. Enlightenment is the "same" as elixir field nominally but it lacks any use in single target. This is also somewhat of an extension of a point I made earlier in the thread about how certain changes that are made to Monk as part of broad changes in design like the removal of Solo-Dots which had a different interaction with Monk's kit or the removal of Dragon Kick because physical aspected resistance debuffs were removed even though Monk was the only job to benefit from that. The original whole of Monk in 2.X and 3.X worked because it had these aspects, without these aspects, Monk is extremely barebones.

Your response was basically telling the people who feel their feedback is meaningless that its the fault of players providing overly broad feedback. Which is simply untrue. Telling them to rehash the feedback they feel has been consistently ignored isn't exactly gonna get them to start spewing more out.

The main issues with Monk are easily broken down into three broad areas.

1. A stagnant and uninteresting rotation.
2. An overabundance of overly situational and underutilized skills.
3. A lack of mobility options.

I'd also say that the double layered RNG that you can't fire of early on a gauge with no overhead and the Full-Party Physical composition dependence to Monk are issues people have with the job as well. Double layered RNG and the gauge have the same issues we've outlined repeatedly for almost three years now, and Monk is still reliant on Scholar/Dragoon for Crit Buffs to fuel that RNG and a Physical Heavy composition beside that to get Chakra procs in Brotherhood (which can still be a total wash even with a favorable comp and is pretty much always a disappointing phase in 4-man's or Solo duties because of your lack of a full party.)