Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Kabooa]

You guys must have forgotten about the devs and how they've been handling monk the past 3 expansions if you think they're going to change anything at this point then you're delusional.

You must be fun at parties.

"You know what would be neat?"

"NO, BECAUSE IT CAN'T HAPPEN SO SPECULATION, AS A FUN PAST TIME, SHOULDN'T HAPPEN"

[IruruCece]

You must be fun at parties.

"You know what would be neat?"

"NO, BECAUSE IT CAN'T HAPPEN SO SPECULATION, AS A FUN PAST TIME, SHOULDN'T HAPPEN"

Speculation can definitely be fun, but at some point, speculation is also meaningless. Having fun ideas or getting your hopes up for change doesn't actually make those changes into reality. Reality for Monk, at this point, is the developers have bungled the job for two expansions in a row, and have apparently refused to actually really look at the feedback from the community in Japan and outside of it. Bearing that in mind, why should Monk players expect anything? Why should they get their hopes up for ideas that are far more likely to never be implemented in any fashion? We're more likely to have another DPS job thrown into the mix before we see existing DPS have their issues fully addressed, and reality has proven this to be correct multiple times.

[Kabooa]

Speculation can definitely be fun, but at some point, speculation is also meaningless. Having fun ideas or getting your hopes up for change doesn't actually make those changes into reality. Reality for Monk, at this point, is the developers have bungled the job for two expansions in a row, and have apparently refused to actually really look at the feedback from the community in Japan and outside of it. Bearing that in mind, why should Monk players expect anything? Why should they get their hopes up for ideas that are far more likely to never be implemented in any fashion? We're more likely to have another DPS job thrown into the mix before we see existing DPS have their issues fully addressed, and reality has proven this to be correct multiple times.

Rather fill my time with design discussion than a pity party.

[IruruCece]

Rather fill my time with design discussion than a pity party.

And I would rather play the game as a different job than play pretend over what could be if only I was actually a developer and not just another customer that's been getting ignored. So I do.

I've played the job for years, I know pretty intimately what I like and dislike about the job. I know many people who have raised the same issues, and others that my casual play would never have uncovered. There have been many, many threads complaining about what isn't working. There have been many threads about how to "refine" or "fix" what is broken. None of that feedback has been addressed, much less acknowledged.

If imagining something cool makes you feel better about the current state of Monk, hey, more power to you. It doesn't do anything for me though, nor does it actually contribute much. It's the same thing as saying "the job sucks," you're just adding "but what if it didn't?" The discussion, so to speak, has been ongoing through Stormblood and Shadowbringers, and we've basically heard nothing in response.

You can call it self-pity if you want, but no amount of speculation will change the facts as they stand. Until we see patch notes that say otherwise, it's pretty obvious that SE's solution to Monk has been "You're not playing it the way we want you to."

[Shurrikhan]

Speculation can definitely be fun, but at some point, speculation is also meaningless. Having fun ideas or getting your hopes up for change doesn't actually make those changes into reality. Reality for Monk, at this point, is the developers have bungled the job for two expansions in a row, and have apparently refused to actually really look at the feedback from the community in Japan and outside of it. Bearing that in mind, why should Monk players expect anything? Why should they get their hopes up for ideas that are far more likely to never be implemented in any fashion? We're more likely to have another DPS job thrown into the mix before we see existing DPS have their issues fully addressed, and reality has proven this to be correct multiple times.

When you've made it clear that the mother devs won't hear you, what good do your moans and self-pity do?

At the least the speculation allows us to refine our understanding of what we do and don't like about the existing kit and what we would and would not like about future kits so we can give more precise feedback early on, rather than providing an overly broad response that can be retailored to whatever narrative or opinion the devs prefer to acknowledge.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

You must be fun at parties.

"You know what would be neat?"

"NO, BECAUSE IT CAN'T HAPPEN SO SPECULATION, AS A FUN PAST TIME, SHOULDN'T HAPPEN"

I took his post to be more frustration at the developers for neglecting us for the past 3 expansions rather than a dig at the players for speculating. I dunno just seemed to be that hopeful thinking now is more or less gone until next expansion as past experiences show that nearly all big changes come in X.1 and X.2, after those the devs generally view X.3 to be closer to the next expansion so no need to tweak anything except the odd potency.

It's a shame and I enjoy reading new speculations for innovative MNK changes but the guy's not wrong to expect changes from this point onwards. We might get a potency change here and there, or if the outrage is really vocal there is the tiniest slither of a chance something small like 6SS, TK or Anatman gets a rework, outside of that our core problems will remain now until 6.0 which pains me to say as I've been vocal along with Speckledburd since before HW days. But judging from previous changes to MNK over the 6 years I've mained it and how proactive the devs have been towards the MNK playerbase we can expect the same drivel we got at the start of 5.0. aka "we knew MNKs didn't like anatman (RoF) and lack of OGCDs (Slowdown), so we are moving it back to an OGCD ability! Also 6SS has been removed and replaced with nothing, so is tornado kick! MNK is the job i'm most proud of for 6.0". Meanwhile all our actual problems this expansion and last will maybe be fixed in the next but we won't get anything new that can add to the MNK identity.

[SpeckledBurd]

I took his post to be more frustration at the developers for neglecting us for the past 3 expansions rather than a dig at the players for speculating. I dunno just seemed to be that hopeful thinking now is more or less gone until next expansion as past experiences show that nearly all big changes come in X.1 and X.2, after those the devs generally view X.3 to be closer to the next expansion so no need to tweak anything except the odd potency.

It's a shame and I enjoy reading new speculations for innovative MNK changes but the guy's not wrong to expect changes from this point onwards. We might get a potency change here and there, or if the outrage is really vocal there is the tiniest slither of a chance something small like 6SS, TK or Anatman gets a rework, outside of that our core problems will remain now until 6.0 which pains me to say as I've been vocal along with Speckledburd since before HW days. But judging from previous changes to MNK over the 6 years I've mained it and how proactive the devs have been towards the MNK playerbase we can expect the same drivel we got at the start of 5.0. aka "we knew MNKs didn't like anatman (RoF) and lack of OGCDs (Slowdown), so we are moving it back to an OGCD ability! Also 6SS has been removed and replaced with nothing, so is tornado kick! MNK is the job i'm most proud of for 6.0". Meanwhile all our actual problems this expansion and last will maybe be fixed in the next but we won't get anything new that can add to the MNK identity.

We're more or less on the same wavelength on this. 5.2 was really the last chance for any major changes to a jo. Unless the devs realize that leaving a job (as its meant to be played) in a state that's near unanimously panned by its playerbase for two full expansions is a serious mistake and they do something dramatic in 5.3 (which would be the right thing to do, but I won't hold my breath), we're waiting until 6.0 before there's a chance at satisfaction. The most we'll probably get is some more token buffs to bump the player numbers for the job up in the vein of the 1% to Fists of Fire added in 4.5 now that its pretty much guaranteed to be the least played job for the rest of the expansion.

It's miserable to think about, but it's the most likely scenario at this point.

[Ramura_Sono]

When you've made it clear that the mother devs won't hear you, what good do your moans and self-pity do?

At the least the speculation allows us to refine our understanding of what we do and don't like about the existing kit and what we would and would not like about future kits so we can give more precise feedback early on, rather than providing an overly broad response that can be retailored to whatever narrative or opinion the devs prefer to acknowledge.

And what good does speculation and precise feedback do when the Devs have shown time and time again that they'll willingly ignore complaints anyway? "We hate the slow on RoF" is pretty precise feedback that the devs received at the beginning and happily ignored throughout the entirety of Stormblood.

Precise feedback gets ignored, and a broader response gets retailored to whatever the devs want so let's not pretend that refining our understanding of what we like and don't like about the current or future kits will result in any sort of significant or meaningful design changes or decisions from the devs. It certainly hasn't before.

[Shurrikhan]

And what good does speculation and precise feedback do when the Devs have shown time and time again that they'll willingly ignore complaints anyway?

Then why make this thread at all? Seriously? There are plenty of other threads that more directly amount to "Monk is dead" for people to visit. There is no need for another group therapy thread on the subject.

If you're just trying to take a piss on anyone and any job still left with some hope, then... all the power to you, I guess? But that's the only thing this all-is-hopeless-so-let's-despair-together-and-ridicule-any-new-ideas mindset in going to uniquely provide.

I for one believe Monk needs a complete rework. That it may have to wait until 6.0 sucks hard, but that doesn't mean I'm going to call anyone and everyone who sources ideas for down the line naive nor try to force an entirely reactive ('there is obviously zero willingness to change until the change has already happened -- despite that it obviously has to occur prior for those changes to have been made at all...') point of view on everyone else.

Why shut down discussion on reworks in your own thread requesting... a complete rework?

[Ramura_Sono]

Why shut down discussion on reworks in your own thread requesting... a complete rework?

Your response was basically telling the people who feel their feedback is meaningless that its the fault of players providing overly broad feedback. Which is simply untrue. Telling them to rehash the feedback they feel has been consistently ignored isn't exactly gonna get them to start spewing more out.

The main issues with Monk are easily broken down into three broad areas.

1. A stagnant and uninteresting rotation.
2. An overabundance of overly situational and underutilized skills.
3. A lack of mobility options.

Which can all of course be broken down more precisely. Both broad feedback and precise feedback can and should be taken into account with any rework. Likewise, identifying precise parts of a kit that just don't truly add anything to the job - locking effects behind fist stances didin't resolve the issue of stances themselves being bloat or asinine activation requirements such as RoE needing to take HP damage to proc it's effect and determining how and if they should be changed and reworked to fit not only within the resolution of broader Job issues, but within the mantra and broader design of the game itself.

Solving precise issues (we want to use SSS/TK more) within broader issues (We have too many situational skills) can be part of a resolution for other issues as well (we use SSS / TK more, This has resulted in our rotation changing) rather than hyper focusing on some precise issue and resolution without thought towards how the result fits into the overall job design which is arguably how we've ended up at the state we are.

Suggesting reworks that add needless complexity in an attempt to justify bloat skills, or that involve a reworking of core game mechanics themselves don't exactly foster discussion when one is ignoring the mantra of "the removal of overly situational and niche skills" and is just more of the same thing we've disliked from precious iterations of monk. The other is just trying to speculate a rework outside of the games core design. It took TWO years to get RoF changed. That's changing two numbers on one skill. That's changing and testing one job. A rework that changes the way the game works at it's core requires testing every job, changing numbers on every job. A rework requiring such things exists far outside the realm of possibility, and thus discussion, for many players.


Having sensible additions to our kit ( rewards for landing positionals or maintaining our maintenance buff ) end up as part of other jobs, neither of which revolved around them as part of their core class mechanic/identity, and then having the idea of monk getting the same thing shot down because homogeneity is somehow bad on top of seeing issues we've suffered with for literally years both get acquired by and resolved for other jobs in a matter of months has understandably made many monk players jaded.

As far as the "woe is me our feedback is futile" goes, at this point it's probably a more effective vehicle for change to let the devs know just how great our disappointment and how little our trust and faith in them is. If an entire community essentially feels their feedback doesn't matter, you've made a big misstep as a developer.