Right, then... [Nier: Automata/Copied Factory] [Spoilers]

[Jennah]

Considering how similar the FF14 world map looks to a map of Earth - with many similar cultures and landmarks in the same geographical spots! - I think there's much better arguments to be made that our Earth is somehow canon to the FF14 universe.

[Iscah]

Considering how similar the FF14 world map looks to a map of Earth - with many similar cultures and landmarks in the same geographical spots! - I think there's much better arguments to be made that our Earth is somehow canon to the FF14 universe.

i feel like that's just a shortcut to establish a large-scale fantasy setting. (Not a particularly good one for immersion IMO, and the Eorzean local map is less blatant about it than the expansions, but convenient if you're going to draw on worldwide cultures/settings and need to establish a base map.)

Golden Sun did the same thing, and I'm sure there are others.


Belated edit: I knew there was another one I couldn't quite remember! Fullmetal Alchemist has quite a similar world map to FFXIV. European base setting, separate desert nations to the south and war-torn near east, snowy fortress in the north and a China/Japan-equivalent somewhere off in the far east.

[RopeDrink]

that universe should not be integrated into this one.

Why not? That smacks of a personal preference more than anything. Next thing we may as well boycott the likes of Dissidia, or Super Smash Bros, or the current cross-over trend that has grown and infested the movie business since the likes of Freddy vs Jason, or Justice League, or all the superhero TV shows and movies that are cashing in on the concept lately. I've not played Nier myself, but if I had (and let's assume we had an Ivalice-sized story as a result of the full Nier raid), then I'd have been more concerned if they tried to use that slice to stretch out a game-length sequel instead of a cross-over raid. The Ivalice raid certainly put a nightcap on the old story, but it wasn't exactly a massive extension or replacement for it. This isn't going to be more Nier than Nier, but a love-letter to it which might throw in a few cherries on-top for those who are fans of it. Judging by some of the reaction videos I've seen, the vast majority are loving it so far and eager to see how it goes. I've never played it and yet even I'm curious.

MHW x FFXIV got me into MHW in the first-place, and having since played both after that happened, I could really appreciate the effort both sides put into content based on the other, yet it was no-less enjoyable when I had no idea what Monster Hunter was. I have no desire to play Nier, yet unlike Ivalice, this one is infinitely easier to follow as a non-Nier-head. The Ivalice story clearly had more reliance on references, characters and other aspects, or at least I can only assume so seeing as my non-tactics-self had barely any idea what was going on and found the whole ordeal rather bland, yet I was also familiar with the fact that this entire game has (almost always) been a mixed-bag of references to previous FF's in some shape or form, however minor, just like Dissidia is another crossover love-letter merging practically all FF universes together into a battle-arena. They're there as fun content for the fans, not to take over from the originals.

To bring it back down to earth, there is no reason for me to question the simple notion that beings from another world may discover ours (or vice-versa), not after a whole expansion fleshing out the fact our own is already split into 14 reflections that are, on the whole, their own worlds entirely (and we've managed to cross space/time to visit it), all while dealing with beings capable of time-bending shenanigans, space-time-travel, and all manner of technological wonderment. Even Midgar and various other beings have casually traversed worlds, him being just a big dragon, so I don't see what's stopping the futuristic epitome of technology in the Nier universe from doing the same, be it for fun or on a serious note.

I would simply recommend suspending disbelief and enjoying it for what it is, at least until the conclusion, where you would then be in a better place to judge the entire package. Until then, saying it should (or should not) take place here doesn't really add anything as there is no reason why it wouldn't or couldn't outside of some people's individual desire for games to remain in their own universe. We're in an era ripe with cross-overs everywhere you look. I can't fart without it stinking up some conversation about the likes of the Justice League or whatever other product involves characters from X meeting characters from Y despite being from different products/universes that, on paper, shouldn't be anywhere near the other, yet here we are.

[Alleo]

Because if the Nier world is canon to FF14 and another Nier comes out that is canon to the old one then anything happening there would influence our world too. Ivalice was still quite a bit like FF12 but it was a real existing place in FF14 who retold the FF12 story and thus fit into the game. (Even though it was hard to follow or truly care if you did not know FF12..at least for me)

If Nier (and thus also all their games) is canon then this could alway open up problems with our own lore...we are not just inserting a monster here (like monster hunter) or retelling a story. According to Yoko this is canon to Nier now so we insert a whole other franchise into this game. On top of that even one that is not in the hands of SE.

[Iscah]

Why not? That smacks of a personal preference more than anything. Next thing we may as well boycott the likes of Dissidia, or Super Smash Bros, or the current cross-over trend that has grown and infested the movie business since the likes of Freddy vs Jason, or Justice League, or all the superhero TV shows and movies that are cashing in on the concept lately.

I said it was personal preference. Not in those words, but I was talking about why I have an issue with it.

And those other crossovers are a different situation entirely. Dissidia and SSB are defined from the start as crossover between specific elements (and also, as far as I'm aware, are not intended to actually affect the canon of the games from which the characters are drawn). And to my understanding, the superhero crossover series has been crafted as such from the start.

My issue with this crossover (assuming it is an actual crossover of lores) has two main elements:

1. Scope creep. FFXIV is a world that draws from various FF titles to build its world lore (with the occasional non-impacting crossover with something else). Now it is FF + NieR that dictates the lore. Next expansion it might be FF + NieR + Other Game. It creeps away from its original intent of "FF crossover" and turns into "Final Fantasy and some other things XIV".

2. Introducing a separate established canon into this one, when it wasn't there from the beginning. If NieR is now canon to FFXIV, this isn't just using some characters for a novelty quest, it's taking an entire story and dropping it into the game. It affects the origins of things. It changes how people talk and theorise about the plot. It's a huge left turn adding an entire game that wasn't supposed to be there when the writers were originally conceiving the story.

If it was built as a crossover from the start, I would feel differently about it. It would be an integral part of the world from the beginning. Instead it's being grafted into an existing story, three expansions into a previously unrelated game.

The story of NieR has been told in the NieR games. The story of FFXIV has been told in FFXIV.

Now the story of NieR is being inserted into FFXIV instead of staying in its own series, and possibly rewriting parts of FFXIV as a consequence.

It just seems like it shouldn't be here.

On the other hand, if it is not impacting FFXIV outside of the immediate zone of the NieR raids and I can ignore it... fine. I am not interested in it being here, and they've done nothing so far to really sell the game to me as a non-NieR-playing FFXIV fan, but fine.

I don't want FFXIV plot theorising to turn into relying on NieR for a full understanding of what's going on in the wider game.

[Cilia]

For the record, the NieR universe does take place in an alternate future of the real world that diverged around the turn of the millennium. (The Drakengard series does the same, but around 1300, if I remember correctly.) The last ("joke") ending causes the protagonist and ultimate antagonist to crash into Shinjuku, Tokyo, leading to the White Chlorination Syndrome that necessitated the Gestalt Project in the original NieR and all that came after.

That said, we have zero context regarding anything in the YoRHa: Dark Apocalypse raids so far; nobody has any idea what's going on, and relying on Automata for context will probably not work out. (I'd like to believe 2P is genuinely heroic, but that's just bias on my part - her history and motives remain shrouded in mystery, and my expectations could always be subverted.)

[xJimmehx]

Spoilers below.

inb4 Earth is one of the twelve shards and we are canonically part of that one Amaurotine that both Ardbert and WoL originate from. Our specialty is not magic but linking worlds through games, books and movies, etc and watching them unfold. We also get to meddle in them a bit with how we interact with said games. A bit of our own variant of "Creation Magic" maybe? XD The WoL will have to work together with us as a team to finish the main scenario one day.

A bit of a stretch I know, but I can definitely see the Earth as a part of XIV in some way beyond Yohra : DA/Copied Factory

[ObsidianFire]

The thing is... the "crossover" bit of NieR with Drakenguard is... super, super tiny. To the point it has almost no bearing on the plot. Actually, how NieR: Gestalt/Replicant is connected to NieR: Automana is almost non-existent as well. At no point in NieR: Automana, do you really "miss" anything if you've never played NieR: Getstalt/Replicant before. In fact, NieR: Automana has more solid info on the backstory of NieR: Gestalt/Repicant then NieR: Gestalt/Replicant ever has on it's own backstory. If it wasn't for the two games having the same name, there would be no real reason to connect them. NieR depends as much on Drakenguard as FFXIV depends on knowing where Ultima, the High Seraph comes from. Which is to say, it really doesn't matter at all. At most, knowing the backstory to anything in NieR amounts to little more then an Easter Egg.

Part of why crossing NieR over with FFXIV does work as well as some of us think it does is that what happened in NieR really doesn't matter as far as the current story goes. If the YorHa raid had the exact same story and had different visuals and names that didn't tie in to NieR at all, nothing would really change about the raid. The only reason why the raid is an issue for people (as far as I can tell) is that we already know where all the designs and names come from. Which causes us to wonder how they all got from NieR into the FFXIV world which brings up how the two worlds could fit together.

It's just that you really could play all the NieR games as standalone games that were not in the same setting and none of them would suffer from it. Case in point, I started with NieR: Automana and then watched/played the series more or less backwards and at no point did I ever feel like the games assumed I'd played the games that had came before them. They were such a complete experience and story all by themselves that it felt like they didn't require a prequel to work well. And when I did find out the backstory, it added much less "new" info then I thought it would. The NieR stories are just so far removed from each other that they really don't feel "interconnected" the way most game series do.

[RopeDrink]

If it was built as a crossover from the start, I would feel differently about it. It would be an integral part of the world from the beginning. Instead it's being grafted into an existing story, three expansions into a previously unrelated game.

So have all the others to a degree, even MHW, where Behemoth is a permanent feature, yet neither is going to influence the other further.

As said, it's not going to be more Nier than Nier, and its presence here isn't going to dictate FFXIV, which has its own individual story that, for the most part, is handled separately (mostly) from all the crossovers we've had to date (such as bosses from previous FF's, Rathalos, Ivalice, Noctis, etc), despite the fact that it is most definitely treated like a melting pot for references and crossover material for the fans. It being canon to Nier itself doesn't really change this other than acknowledging what has already been established just by this cross-over existing in the first place, that these worlds are within reach of one another. I don't see any reason why this raid-tier won't conclude with FFXIV (and Nier itself) simply moving on without after-effects.

EDIT:
This is no more surprising to me than Noctis visiting us, or the Ivalice situation - which, judging by fan-videos on the subject, should annoy people more than this does. After all, from what I could surmise from those videos as a non-tactics head, the original ending was later explained by said-crossover to a point where Ramza locked it all away to wait for the Warrior of Light (or something equivalent) to fix the problem, whereas those who played the original (without FFXIV) get the vague (and seemingly more disappointing) ending.

Yet that is all said and done and we won't have Ivalice making any further (major) impacts on our own story. In fact, you could say it never did (just like Nier), because they are side-raids and not an integral part of FFXIV or its story as a whole. The only difference is Nier is fresher than the old Ivalice-related FF's and may continue on its own, which doesn't have to include a big FFXIV imprint, or vice-versa. It's just so inconsequential to me due to being an obvious love-letter to each-other and nothing more, so I'm struggling mightily to see how people could have a problem with it, rather than embrace it as more FFXIV/Nier content.

[Alleo]

So have all the others to a degree, even MHW, where Behemoth is a permanent feature, yet neither is going to influence the other further.

Notic and other FF events are mostly one time stuff that may or may not even be canon. They are not fixed or have a whole raid for them. The monster hunter monster can at least be seen as something which come from far away, the only thing that looks out of place are the cats. The same for Behemoth in MHW. Its just one monster. As far as I know they did not introduce our races or our history into the game, just one monster and armor for it.

Ivalice or the crystal towers are also retellings of a story. They at least tried to give them a place in the world that fits. Crystal tower now even being an important plot point, so we cant just say that these things might never get important. I still find too much cameos meh so Ivalice was not my favorite raid (just like I did not like Omega) but Nier is much worse than that.

1. Not a FF title and not even a SE title.
2. Permanent addition to the game by being a raid. Like Ivalice it now has a fixed place in the FF14 world.
3. Yoko says that what happens in the raid is now canon to Nier, which in turn means that Nier is also canon for FF14. We dont get a retelling or one monster/character from another game, we get whole worlds and lore..

Even the lore bits we can gather afterwards are making (imo) no sense at all if you are not a Nier fan. They too are nothing to give us an understanding of its place, they are fanservice.

Right now I feel like they dont even try to connect it to the game. This factory is just there, nobody really cares that seemingly there are human looking androids running around. I hope that this really gets better and that they at least try to explain things.