[dev1033] Fitting classic Final Fantasy (advanced) classes with the Armuory System

[Abriael]

I personally think that many are putting the cart in front of the horse by assuming that the development team has the will or even the resources to completely do away with the armory system, especially considering that they need to share those resources with a truckton of other things that need work and that the armoury system is the whole foundation of the game. Radically changing or removing it requires completely reworking much more than just classes.
This without mentioning that many (me included) actually enjoy it.

Also, I feel that developing the classic Final Fantasy classes as advanced classes with a full fledged skillset (that also involves creating assets like animations and effects, and would complicate balancing even further) might be biting a little too much for what they can chew, for the same reason as above, at least in the foreseeable future.

So I thought about a system that fits the current armoury system, and whose implementation is relatively slender, in order to raise the possibility to see some results in less than biblical times.

I will use Gladiator and Paladin as examples, but of course you can change Gladiator with Lancer and Paladin with Dragoon, and any other combination to the same effect.

After leveling Gladiator to a certain level (two possibilities here, a lower level, like level 25, to allow accessibility from earlier times, or a higher level like level 40, to make the advanced class a matter of "prestige", a bit more rare. An higher access level would also push player towards specialization, as they would have to sweat to aquire multiple advanced classes), the player would be able to access a quest to unlock the paladin advanced class.


Once the (possibly rather epic) quest or questline is completed (it's also possible to start the questline at much lower levels, and evolve it each few levels with a new chapter, to turn the process in a story of personal growth), the gladiator would acquire the ability to equip Holy Swords on top of the usual swords/daggers.

When equipping a normal sword, he'd still be a gladiator, with his usual skillset, titles and so forth. This to allow those that enjoy being just a gladiator to still have their niche with the new system.

When equipping a Holy sword the gladiator would become a Paladin. With the same rank as his gladiator class (I don't feel that advanced classes should be leveled from scratch, as it wouldn't really fit this system, forcing people to grind a lot in order to receive just a few new skills, there's enough ranking up to do in the game anyway, even more so in perspective of possible level cap raises).

The skillset of a paladin would be similar to the original gladiator one, but a number of key skills would be replaced with the same number of more specialized and flavor-related skills. I would say one every 6-10 ranks, depending on how many development resources SE is willing/able to spend to develop the advanced classes.

The new skills would be more closely related to the chosen role of the class (for the Paladin, they would be further specialized towards tanking).

They would also follow the following rules:
1: none of the advanced class skills would be eligible for cross-classing. They could be equipped ONLY when the related advanced weapon is equipped.
2: When equipping the advanced weapon, the original basic skills replaced by the advanced ones aren't available for cross classing with the advanced class.
3: each advanced class skill has a dual effect: a positive effect, related to the specialized nature of the advanced class (a tanking bonus for paladin) and a negative effect, related to the opposite of the class specialization (a damage dealing malus for paladin).

This means that our gladiator that wants to be fairly viable as a tank, but still deal a viable amount of damage (for a less specialized approach), would equip a normal sword and remain a gladiator. If he wanted to take a more specialized approach to battle, empowering his tanking skills, but weakening his ability to deal damage, he'd wield his Holy Sword and become a paladin.

Here are a few examples of possible changes from a basic gladiator skill to an advanced paladin skill. Remember they are for examplification purpose only, since I obviously don't think I have the tools to dabble with the balancing of each skill:

Level 4: Rampart
Fight to protect yourself, increasing defense and magical defense.

would become:

Level 4: Invincible
Invoke the protection of the Twelve, massively increasing defense and magical defense, but drastically reducing attack.

Level 12 Spinstroke
Feint and then strike, dealing slashing damage. Increases attack power when the target is not engaging you.

would become:

Level 12 Praying Blade
Wield the holy blade of the Twelve as you strike your foes, dealing slashing damage. Decreases attack power, but heals your wounds as you hit.
(you deal less damage, but a successful hit applies an heal over time effect on you)

Level 20 Onion Cut
Feign weakness and then attack, dealing slashing damage.
(for the ones that don't know, given the obscure explanation, the lower your HP are, themore damage you deal)

would become:

Level 20 Excalibur
Wield the most pure between blades in your moment of weakness, sacrificing your strength to lift your spirit. deal slashing damage.
(Deals normal damage, instantly heal yourself for 3/4 of the HP you're missing from your full HP, apply a damage debuff on yourself for the next 10 seconds)


Level 26 Cadence
Control the pace of combat, increasing the power of your next attack while in Battle Regimen mode.

would become

Level 25 Battle Hymn
Sing the praises of the Twelve as you fight, enraging your unholy foe. You deal less damage, but your enemity raises with every hit.
(duration 10 seconds)

Also, advanced classes should have exclusive specialized equipment that cannot be worn by other classes. Possibly earned with a continuation/sequel of the quest chain that allowed the player to achieve the advanced class itself.

Such specialized equipment should follow the same rules as the skills above. Giving sizable bonuses for the class' speciality, but also maluses for it's opposite (IE: paladin armor would increase defence and enemity, and decrease attack)

This would achieve the following results:
1: reintroduction of the flavor of old Final Fantasy classes
2: It would still fit well alongside the core of the armory system (short of further balancing/fixing/polishing that can help, in itself, class specialization), without requiring excessive (and costly/long) revolutions
3: it could be implemented in a relatively short timeframe, requiring a reasonable amount of development resources/time
4: allow players to specialize further in a role
5: the new FFXIV classes would be still viable and would still have a role, for those that enjoy them and wouldn't want to feel left out/behind

Initially one advanced class would be available for each basic class (as I doubt implementing 14 advanced classes all in one big bunch is a viable possibility), then further advanced classes could be introduced with patches or expansions, branching the possibilities and allowing further specialization.

Gladiator -> Paladin
Pugilist -> Monk
Marauder -> Berserker (or maybe Dark Knight?)
Lancer -> Dragoon
Conjurer -> Black Mage
Thaumaturge -> White Mage
Archer -> Ranger

I would also like to hear people's opinion about the possibility of certain basic classes having more advanced possibilities than others. That would increase the flexibility of the system, allowing for more advaced classes at the beginning and removing the necessity of putting in 7 advanced classes every single time one is added.

In that case this could be a possible initial example:

Gladiator -> Paladin/Dark Knight
Pugilist -> Monk/Samurai
Marauder -> Berserker
Lancer -> Dragoon
Conjurer -> White Mage/Black Mage
Thaumaturge -> Red Mage
Archer -> Ranger

Of course pairings aren't set in stone, this is just what came to mind as the most logical off the top of my head.

If you got this far, thanks for reading the wall'o'text.

[Akumu]

Hmm this actually is a great idea. I like how with GLA they would still use a sword BUT they would use holy sword instead of a regular one. DRK would use like an Evil sword I assume(since DRKs are naturally suppose to be sword wielders). I rather like your second combinations/list but i would think SAM should be with Lancer more than a Pug. Pug would be better to have like a thief option instead. Thaumaturge -> summoner maybe? You and Kurokikaze have the 2 best ideas for this situation in my opinion.

[Kurokikaze]

Excalibur seems overpowered much. Good job.

[Cairdeas]

One of the things the US players can't seem to understand is the Classes in XIV are just weapon specialists not Jobs.


Class > Weapon Specialist
Job > Role Specialist

In japan Gladiator is called something like "Sword User" not "Gladiator"


Even the former director stated multiple times. Classes are Not Jobs and Jobs are Not classes when it comes to the terms used in FFXI, FFXIV and previous Final Fantasies (We are not considering how they are used in other MMO's at this point)

A Gladiator (Sword User) can be a Thief, Warrior, Paladin, Dragoon (Wing Swords), Red Mage, Samurai, Ninja.

While a Paladin can use a Sword, Lance, Shield, Great Sword, Club.

If the US players could start grasping that concept they'd understand that a System that adds Jobs ontop of the Classes is the most likely course they are going to take (Choice 2 that Yoshi-P comments on in a recent Interview on Eorzeapedia.)

[Akumu]

One of the things the US players can't seem to understand is the Classes in XIV are just weapon specialists not Jobs.


Class > Weapon Specialist
Job > Role Specialist

In japan Gladiator is called something like "Sword User" not "Gladiator"


Even the former director stated multiple times. Classes are Not Jobs and Jobs are Not classes when it comes to the terms used in FFXI, FFXIV and previous Final Fantasies (We are not considering how they are used in other MMO's at this point)

A Gladiator (Sword User) can be a Thief, Warrior, Paladin, Dragoon (Wing Swords), Red Mage, Samurai, Ninja.

While a Paladin can use a Sword, Lance, Shield, Great Sword, Club.

If the US players could start grasping that concept they'd understand that a System that adds Jobs ontop of the Classes is the most likely course they are going to take (Choice 2 that Yoshi-P comments on in a recent Interview on Eorzeapedia.)

Hmm so correct me if im wrong. So what im taking from this is the classes will only be good for the abilities because you will have about 5 jobs opened up to you later? To me i can say it sounds cool cause i can be a DRG with a sword or be a RDM and actually melee(also cool to me). That would also create uniqueness since not all DRG(etc) will wield the same weapon and actually be good with it(unlike XI). When I think that far it gets confusing because of the current armoury system in place. So then it gets hard to fully understand how this would work.

[Cairdeas]

With how the system is now its actually "Any Job can by Any Class, Vis Versa" the problem is its up to the player to decide to do that. A lot of the suggestions rolling around the forums will actually take that freedom away.

[Abriael]

Excalibur seems overpowered much. Good job.

as I said, they're just for the sake of example I sure don't have the pretense to think I'd be able to come up with perfectly balanced skills.

One of the things the US players can't seem to understand is the Classes in XIV are just weapon specialists not Jobs.


Class > Weapon Specialist
Job > Role Specialist

In japan Gladiator is called something like "Sword User" not "Gladiator"


Even the former director stated multiple times. Classes are Not Jobs and Jobs are Not classes when it comes to the terms used in FFXI, FFXIV and previous Final Fantasies (We are not considering how they are used in other MMO's at this point)

A Gladiator (Sword User) can be a Thief, Warrior, Paladin, Dragoon (Wing Swords), Red Mage, Samurai, Ninja.

While a Paladin can use a Sword, Lance, Shield, Great Sword, Club.

If the US players could start grasping that concept they'd understand that a System that adds Jobs ontop of the Classes is the most likely course they are going to take (Choice 2 that Yoshi-P comments on in a recent Interview on Eorzeapedia.)

While this is an interesting way to make things work, we still don't know if that'll be the final choice. From everything I've seen so far (and from what Yoshida said himself) the dev team is still undecided between the idea of class specializations and advanced classes. So I wouldn't discount any possibility yet.

Also, I'm not sure I'm sold on the fact that every single class should have every job open to it. In any case, since no final decision seems to have been taken (or at least announced), I would say everything is possible.

[ObsidianRae]

I really like the idea of adding multiple job possibilities. Or even just one. At the far end, I'd even like to see as many class options as in FF Tactics.