Need some Tenacity math..

[SayoTharonel]

Hello,

I couldn't find any Info on this or I haven't searched very well. Hope any of you can do some math for me.
It's about the old question: What amount of Tenacity does what and do you even profit from higher values anyhow now in 5.x?

If anyone could spread some knowledge, that would be great.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Check http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/ten/ for Tenacity breakpoints.

[SayoTharonel]

This is... wow.. nothing.
So, long story short, Tenacity is still useless at least compared to the other stats and should be avoided like STDs... ^^

[Argyle_Darkheart]

So, long story short, Tenacity is still useless at least compared to the other stats and should be avoided like STDs... ^^

No.

Tenacity is essentially worse Determination. If you're okay with sacrificing a little bit of DPS for a little bit of passive mitigation, then go for it. There are also times where melding Tenacity will give greater returns on DPS than a Determination meld due to stat breakpoints, but that's really only relevant to WAR.

I will say, however, that melding Tenacity for mitigation is highly unnecessary at current gear levels, so I would recommend against it unless you're planning on doing Ultimate.

[DRKoftheAzure]

In defense of Tenacity, it does do more Damage than Skill Speed since Skill Speed only affects GCD and DoT, and having a 15-20% faster GCD can go a long way on certain jobs, but only MNK, SAM, and BLM have haste effects in their toolkit, and because tanks and healers do not have access to haste related skills, Skill Speed becomes even more undesirable at lower ilvls so it is more of an early ilvl thing that Tenacity is better but it's only good at 5-6% damage increases otherwise you risk losing more DPS from other stats like Crit. Hit and Determination.


Direct Hit doesn't seem to become a viable choice on tanks until after the second or third raid tiers but this is more due to balancing issues that could have easily been avoided with just by having the rate of Direct Hits scale with the Crit. Hit stat, but Direct Hits needed to replace accuracy for some reason...


I would have been perfectly okay with Accuracy being buffed to were it is a DPS gain because it gave a Direct Hit rate, though this would mean every single piece of gear would have needed accuracy because of not having enough accuracy like how tanks needed strength on every single piece of tank accessory because they weren't doing enough damage to clear, so there is that argument if you need it...

[Wyti]

Its more useful than you think but still not great.

E.G with 2.4k Tenacity instead of 2.4k Det. You would have 6.1% damage and mitigation instead of 8.1% damage, so for roughly 2.1% less damage done you take up 6.1% less damage.

So not great to focus on, but don't be too mad to have some on your gear its not that awful.

[Lodi]

Tenacity isn't bad to have, it's just not as good regarding DPS.

(Also just to correct something, WHM does have one Haste skill)

[DRKoftheAzure]

Tenacity isn't bad to have, it's just not as good regarding DPS.

(Also just to correct something, WHM does have one Haste skill)

Oh sh*t, you're right! I forgot about Presence of Mind!

So WHM, BLM, NIN, MNK, SAM, and maybe SMN and MCH(because of Dreadwyrm/Firebird Trance and Heat Blast due to how they work) have access to haste but none of the tanks and Physical Ranged do not have access to haste, so at least 1 tank need to have access to some form of haste...



EDIT: WAR Fell Cleaves and Decimate also qualify as haste effects because of how it affects Infuritate recast timer, but that's on a technicality like Dreadwyrm/Firebird Trance removing cast times and Heat Blast affecting Guass Round/Ricochet recast timer...

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

-snip-

Alright, before any confusion ends up happening, let's first declare what even qualifies as "Haste".

Haste is the general term for buffs that reduce recast time of GCD actions (Weaponskills, Spells), with Skillspeed -> Physical Haste and Spellspeed -> Magical Haste only.

As you said, various jobs have their own Haste buffs, such as:

- Presence of Mind (WHM)
- Greased Lightning (MNK)
- Shifu (SAM)
- Huton (NIN)
- Army's Paeon (BRD)
- Ley Lines (BLM)

What does not qualify as Haste is "sudo-Haste" via Hypercharge allowing you to use 1.5s recast Weaponskills on MCH or actions that reduce recast timers on off-GCD actions (like Fell Cleave reducing Infuriate by 5s). They do increase the overall tempo of jobs for certain and depending on who you ask, might feel good, but they aren't falling under the actual definition of what Haste is.

Now that all is said and done about Haste...

Skillspeed and Spellspeed aren't dead stats. You still want to have a certain amount of it to adjust your GCD recast timer to either a value that comfortable for you due to latency or that lines up with your job's rotation better. Some jobs even require a minimum amount of skillspeed to be played properly without losses due to game mechanics (like Blood Weapon from DRK needing you to have at least 2.43s GCD recast if not faster to give room for latency and / or jitter to get the 5th MP+Blood tick; I recommend 2.40s).

[SayoTharonel]

I will say, however, that melding Tenacity for mitigation is highly unnecessary at current gear levels, so I would recommend against it unless you're planning on doing Ultimate.

That's the point. I got to admit that I'm not into savage and ultimate content so it's not that of a problem if a few points go wasted. But still, I like to improve my stats in a useful way.

Its more useful than you think but still not great.

E.G with 2.4k Tenacity instead of 2.4k Det. You would have 6.1% damage and mitigation instead of 8.1% damage, so for roughly 2.1% less damage done you take up 6.1% less damage.

So not great to focus on, but don't be too mad to have some on your gear its not that awful.

Hmm, those Numbers are quite interesting. Consindering that as a Tank survivability should be top priority, not dps. Still, due to gear options I currently have I will invest some Phantasmagoria to get some Crit/Det. back and reduce Ten. back to where it was before (like 1200-1400ish).

Thank you for your answers.