[Spoilers] I'm getting sick of shonen manga power-ups each arc

[LineageRazor]

Ran'jit doesn't have a "power level" supplied by his dragon. No one has power levels, this is not Dragonball Z. Ran'jit has a wealth of both combat experience and life experience in general. The dragon familiar is an accessory, one of many advantages he's picked up over a lifetime of experience; it's not the sole reason he was able to overcome us. He knows tricks that we don't, which is quite reasonable as our own characters still have plenty to learn. Even disregarding the special advantages we had in those fights, the ability to defeat a Primal or a Dragon or even a fully-realized Ascian does not automatically translate to ability to defeat someone with a different skill set than they have.

Who says Ran'jit couldn't kill a Lightwarden? He probably could. Ask Titania what happens when you do. And Minfilia wouldn't be any help there - she does not do the Light absorption thing that we do. She was with us for most of our Lightwarden kills, and she didn't do any absorption there, either. If she had, it would have saved an awful lot of drama later on when we became overburdened.

Any advantages the Echo gives us in combat are fan speculation only. This is deliberate, as the game writers don't want to trample on the narrative players make for their own characters' backgrounds. A lot of people would resent the implication that we're only strong because Hydaelyn made us strong. Because of this the only confirmed abilities it gives us are passive ones - the ability to understand languages, the ability to see the past in peoples' memories, resistance to Tempering. Fordola's Resonance-enhanced fighting ability tests this, but in the end it's still not expressed in-game that we're better fighters because the Echo makes us so. (And a good thing, too, given how easily Fordola's "advantage" was overcome. Good thing our combat skills can't be shut off like her's can!)

For all their longevity, the Ascians are not skilled fighters. They are manipulators, and the only times we've seen them engage in combat are with us. They've probably done so at other times in the past, but in twelve thousand years, I'd guess the amount of actual combat experience they have with individuals whom they can't simply snuff out with a flick of the wrist likely amounts to less than even ours, let alone Ran'jit's. Before they became Ascians, they were scientists, philosophers, and intellectuals, not warriors. The Ancients were a peaceful people, from what we've seen, living very harmoniously with one another. After becoming Ascians, they encourage people to kill each other, and rarely have to do so themselves.

We've only scratched the surface of of Ran'jit's history, and it's clear he was an important person on the first. He's not no one or nothing - he's basically Batman in terms of reaching the heights of which a human is capable. We, too, are at those heights, as is Zenos. And there will doubtless be other peak humans we'll cross swords with in the future. Expect other mortals to be capable of testing our limits in the future - the game would be pretty lame, otherwise.

[Riastrad]

I was going with the over all theme of the thread. You know, shonen manga tropes. Of course power levels are silly. I'm simply stating that if Elidibus (who was trying to kill us) couldn't handle us cleanly. How does a regular man like Ranjit have the slightest hope of doing so? Narrative wise, no one comes close to the Ascians in terms of strength, we witness what Emet did as an almost after thought in the creation of Amaurot. He's simply a plot device that follows the same story beats as Zenos from the previous expansion. We fight them both in the same narrative points and they both suffer from being one dimensional. I brought up Nidhogg and Hraesvelgr as they are the strongest dragons we have faced within the main story. A lesser Wyrm shouldn't really be of any consequence junctioned or not if those two are what we go by. So it comes down to the man and he wasn't anything special if tricks are his go to method of fighting. You can even see him try to use the lightning attack on us again and when it doesn't work he can't do anything but slow us down.

As for him being able to kill a Lightwarden. Yeah, he wouldn't be in his current mental state of wanting to lock Minfilia away and letting the world be destroyed if he could and he tried for years as every single one of his defenders has pointed out. As for Minfilia not absorbing the aether, that was the plan to go with if summoning us failed. So yes, it is possible for her to have done it as well. I mean the Scions were right there with us and the light went to us instead. Why wouldn't he just throw bodies at the damn thing and have her sweep in after it was done? Because he couldn't do it. He couldn't do what four people did with an army. He should have tried his tricks, they might have helped. So there is that.

The Echo actually is explained as allowing us to see aetherial shifts in our opponents. That is why you see the aoe markers in fights. Our Echo allows us to see the effect before it happens. That was the whole point of Fordola being able to dodge Lyse and Alisaie's attacks. It also makes you stronger in certain instances such as solo fights, it's called Brilliant Conviction: Breaking limits as only a true Warrior of Light could. Not kidding that's the buff name and description.

Why wouldn't the Ascians be experts at combat? We are not the first set of WoL's to have challenged them and if memory serves, those previous incarnations had even greater backing from Hydaelyn. Elidibus took down three powerful opponents (Lyse, Yugiri, and Hien, who are not slouches btw) at once by himself while in the body of Zenos. I would say he is an expert in almost all forms of combat due to having lived for so long. Take the WoL for instance. How many jobs do you have capped at 80? I'm sure they have a few tucked away as well at whatever maximum is relevant at the time. So Ranjit's 100 years of conflict (being real generous here) count but the Ascians 10,000+ don't?

I highly suspect the Eulmores story and by extension Ranjit's is over before it really began. I want to be wrong here by the by. If i'm not, well that was a waste wasn't it? This last patch he got a mention of how they found his body and how it was such a jarring sight to behold and how hard it will be to enforce security without him around. I worry that he doesn't have any more relevance to the story, which is bull considering he was supposed to be something special but we don't get to really see anything noteworthy from him. Shows up what four times and then dies? Boring.

In conclusion. Why force a loss if the same event will play over and over. You know, we lose, then a friend comes to bail us out. We stalemate the next time we fight. Then we kill them after raid on their base of operations. It's happened twice in back to back expansions. The time for copying and pasting is hopefully done. I am not adverse with having rivals, just please for the love of Hydaelyn. Make them compelling? Emotionless murder princes and suicidal old men aren't really my cup of tea.

It's a problem of power creep. Only one way to go, and if not done correctly ruins everything that has come before. SE should watch that closely.

[Rayo]

Well, in our first bout with him, it ends up with us literally helpless at his feet. Following that, we spent the bulk of the remainder of the 5.0 MSQ running away from the guy. The implication is pretty clear that Ran'jit is meant to be more than we can handle.

Charitably, you can say that he's more than we can handle WHILE also protecting our friends (and Minfilia in particular). Folks have also speculated that his sole victory over us was due to a cheap shot, a trick that we would not fall for again. Whatever the case, folks are irked that we have to make excuses at all - in their minds, there's no excuse for a scripted defeat of the WoL, unless we're up against something TRULY impressive, like Zodiark himself.

Funnily enough, Shonen icons Goku and Vegeta themselves have recently taken losses to cheapshots and dirty tricks. Most notable at the start of the newest Arc where they're both simply knocked out with a powered up taser to the back while in base form. Shows that brute force and overwhelming power was never the only way to take out superior opponents.

While the WoL/D is a very powerful individual, they're still very much a normal being and can be restrained, poisoned, blindsided, knocked out, magicked against there will and all sorts of unconventional tactics.

Also with the WoL/D, I never get the feeling of getting stronger story wise in shadowbringers. In Stormblood we get the feeling of getting stronger by our rematches with Zenos. In Shadwobringers, we don't get that sense of personal strength up until the end, long past and unrelated to Ran'jit. Matter of fact, whenever Ran'jit showed up including when we first meet him, It felt like he was our greatest obstacle to our goals, not the greatest danger.

[Wiccan026]

With regards to this whole Ran'jit "fiasco".

He is in four confrontations, three with our character and one with Thancred.

The first encounter is wave of wave of bad guys and while you have an army fighting with you, you can see that what happened before you went and got minfilia that your character wasn't "fresh". The second encounter involves you going through an ancient temple and right before you fight, your lifeforce is being drained while you puzzle solve ... and you play Indiana Jones after that. The third and final encounter for our character has us at our "strongest" because regardless of what you did the job as you had a healer by your side the entire time you're storming Eulmore until right before the final fight. I'd argue that's what makes the true difference here.

That being the case for the next expansion it would be nice if things weren't quite as "similar" but the way this story unfolded I don't see how they couldn't make what happen happen without changing the ShB story which is epic.

[LiMing]

I never got the feeling he was actually strong (aside from the trolley scene), just annoying. I just hated how the story forced us to not fight him, yet constantly showed him jobbing to other characters.

Oh he's gonna charge at us, rematch time? Nope, Exarch paralyzes him and he doesn't even have the balls to against him.
Oh he's fighting us in the temple? Nope, apparently "this is going nowhere" so he gets chained by the viis so we can get the magic seal thing.
Oh he's flying straight at us, we'll resume the fight? Nope, Y'shtola blocks him and he doesn't even crack the barrier unlike Zenos.
Oh it's just me and him, maybe I'll get to yeet him into the pit myself? Nope, Thancred does it.
Oh he survived and he just kicked our trolley aside, time to finally properly kill him because apparently he can just survive bottomless falls thanks to magic dragon? Nope, Thancred (someone who can't even use aether) beats the hell out of him so hard he forces his transformation and he still can't beat Thancred.

I liked Zenos. With him everyone got the same treatment, and he only shows up twice to mess with our plans (not EVERY ZONE). Lyse? All her angry punches blocked with his palm. Y'shtola? Her barrier gets easily broken and she gets a giant gaping wound on the chest. Yugiri? Just swatted away like a fly twice. Not even his own soldiers are safe.

I do find one thing funny about Ran'jit. How he's supposed to be this super experienced GENERAL, yet the eulmoran army is probably the most incompetent foe we ever faced. The adjutant is almost comic relief tier.
At least his death was satisfying. We just kick him into the dirt after we get weakened from absorbing Storge. He gets no recognition, just a single brief glance from Thancred.

[SaberMaxwell]

Whatever the case, folks are irked that we have to make excuses at all - in their minds, there's no excuse for a scripted defeat of the WoL, unless we're up against something TRULY impressive, like Zodiark himself.

The first clause of the sentence is exactly my problem. The writers did not, in my opinion, adequately explain how he crushed us so handily in our first bout that is logically consistent with how we defeated him in Eulmore. On its own Round 1 is fine, and like you said the story heavily implies we're constantly on the run from him. Were his final fight as a dungeon boss, it would have been fine too, because so far every story dungeon in ShB has us with our trusts--so we're canonically 4(7?)v1 in that scenario, which would remain logically consistent with what it would take to beat the Ranjit of Fight 1 as he was presented. It would also give Ryne and Thancred the closure that their characters would demand from a foil like Ranjit like I was complaining they didn't get earlier. I would have vastly preferred this route, and would have no problems with the presentation of Ranjit's power this way.

He was instead presented in a 1v1 duel with the WoL after. The story never explained anything along the lines of Ranjit's skills, Thancred never is like "Oh yeah watch out for that lightning strike it's a real shocker;" the WoL isn't present for Ranjit's unveiling of merging with his Familiar. So compared to Round 1, Ranjit not only is stronger, but once more is using a foreign moveset to the WoL, and the WoL is actually (if not unchanged at all) weaker than in Round 1 due to being overburdened with Light. That leaves us with a huge inconsistency, that players are going to feel the need to fill in. "He used a foreign move on the WoL," "He's fought more/longer/harder than WoL," "He's gotten tired and weaker over the course of the journey." There's a place for subtext and letting readers fill in the gap for sure, and maybe that was their intention with Ranjit, but in this case they more or less left us with a blank slate and said "Fill in your reasons why Ranjit rolled over you and friends in Round 1 and you reversed it in Round 4."

[Alleo]

And which Lightwarden's did we kill on our own? None. They are dungeon bosses and thus one can only assume that, canonically, they required either the present Scions and/or Exarch or a party of fellow WoL's.

Which only had a noticeable impact after absorbing the last Lightwarden.

WoL still can quite easily beat people that have mastered their jobs for decades (in job quests) while they learned it in weeks/months. Also at the very end with barely any time gone we somehow suddenly are able to defeat him in solo combat. Where are those decades of mastery here?

We defeat Titania and Innocence solo. One of them being the strongest lightwarden. We flee only with the scions to Il Mheg and have no time to collect any adventurers with Titania and Innocence is directly after climbing the mountain with only the scions who are staying back to defeat the other sin eaters. Where did those adventurers come from? (And disappear afterwards to leave us with the enemies)

We already felt the Lightwarden in the woods. It was the first time that we reacted on it and it only got worse after that. So we are when we defeat Ranjit not on 100% of our full potential. Yet beat him..without any direct training against his combat style..and remember that he did not even go full out in the first fight either. Only with Thancred did he truly use his dragon.

The quest text for the Final Steps of Faith:
Imbued with Hraesvelgr's last sliver of hope, you stand at the forefront of your allies as the last bastion against the raging shade of Nidhogg. Have you the resolve to conquer the great wyrm at the height of his power, or will Ishgard perish in fire and ruin? Here, on the battle-stricken Steps of Faith, your deeds shall decide how the final verse of a thousand-year dirge of grief and vengeance will be sung.

The lore book also states that we did this solo.

[Jandor]

The lore book also states that we did this solo.

"With it, the Warrior of Light became Ishgards best and last hope of slaying the rampaging Nidhogg. The great wyrms shade was a fearsome foe, consumed by a thousand years of vengeance. However, the Warrior of Light too was a force to be reckoned with, infused with the might of Hraesvelgr and filled with an otherwordly determination. Thus empowered, he subduesd Nidhoggs shade and restored Estiniens to his original form."

Technically it doesn't actually state that you were alone. It can certainly be read that way, but it's not definitive.

[RopeDrink]

I don't buy any of that as it's mostly done to preserve the story. References to other players is often done as 'friends' or 'mercenaries' in the few occasions NPC's mention the need to sign up for a group-duty. They obviously can't be called Warriors of Light as we are 'the' Warrior of Light and the star of the show, with that one exception in the ShB finale with Catty'G summoning 'champions from beyond the rift', which is basically another deflective method of saying 'other WoL's that aren't 'the' WoL' because 'you' are the one and only WoL'. In short, while the game may maintain the illusion that this is all our doing by ourselves and we've got no help whatsoever other than the Scions and various NPC's, it clearly isn't the case.

[Alleo]

"With it, the Warrior of Light became Ishgards best and last hope of slaying the rampaging Nidhogg. The great wyrms shade was a fearsome foe, consumed by a thousand years of vengeance. However, the Warrior of Light too was a force to be reckoned with, infused with the might of Hraesvelgr and filled with an otherwordly determination. Thus empowered, he subduesd Nidhoggs shade and restored Estiniens to his original form."

Technically it doesn't actually state that you were alone. It can certainly be read that way, but it's not definitive.

When the same source (the lore book) takes care to make it very obvious when we have someone with us (by saying that we are not alone and calling out the units of adventurers) then yes this is for me evidence that we are alone. Otherwise why would that example be different and not mention them even though they are there?

@Rope: Tell me then how it would make sense in canon that we have "friends" with us against Titania? We flee from Ranjit (a solo fight with no other adventurers near us) into a country that is protected by the pixies. We do a dungeon (again with the scions) and then make our way through the country and to the different tribes again without any friends. Then everything goes bad fast! Ranjit is there. The others go back to buy us time...and suddenly the WoL who barely even knows anyone on this shards calls in some random 7 other people that arrive there to help us? How would they arrive fast enough? How would we even know them? And why are they gone afterwards instead of flying on the Amaros with us to defeat Ranjit?

How would Innocence make sense? We go at this again only with the scions. How did they get there? Why are they gone afterwards when they could have at least tried to stop Emet? It makes imo no sense to have them there.

Hades is different. This is probably the only in canon fight that is done with 7 other people in shadowbringers. Why? Because we see them being summoned by the exarch in a cutscene before the trial itself (so in story confirmation of it happening) and them being not there at the end also makes sense because I doubt that such a spell can last forever and we did have quite the hard fight. So before they could have helped us more they puffed out of existence. There you have a group fight that makes complete sense and is part of the cutscenes.

With most of the other instances you only have these people come in while in the dungeon/trial/raid and have them disappear afterwards without any reason too.

If the lore writers come out one day and say that this was all done with groups then I have to accept that I saw it wrong. But the lore book does support my view (at least the first one, dont have the second one) and at least the logic makes only much sense if we are alone or with the scions.