What Classes Do You Want to See Next?

[Shurrikhan]

BST is probably the most spammy of the ideas, in this thread and in other forums generally over the years. And it is rarely put forth in a thought out manner.

I don't have anything precisely developed as of yet—I had an old write-up from back in ARR, but its harddrive has since been lost to me—but if you are willing to also put into discussion a few changes that I feel would in any case be better for the game and would give precedent for some BST ideas, I can give something of a framework.

I'll try to be brief for now:

Three Background Premises:

• We should not be as role-locked as we are, nor job design so ruled by role templates. Kits should have more versatility than they will necessarily use within any particular role, albeit at competing use of time and other resources when crossing between roles so to speak, and casual matchmaking should look at these capacities more directly rather than the mere primary color of a given job.
  
  
• It is okay for a kit to be complex. Imagine, for instance, a Summoner with the rotational complexity of, say, a RDM (which is to say, not much, but not quite the least) for each Summon it might have active (though such would still be mutually exclusive).
  
  
• It is okay for jobs to have to go out of their way, including in unique ways, for related skills. If need be, it is also fine for matchmaking to account for skill acquisition in much the same way it does gear, so long as the related minimum amounts can be averaged across a premade group. Yes, this means DRGs potentially having to hunt or fight alongside particular Dragons or complete similarly thematic activities (whether one-and-done or a mere small added challenge atop typical combat, etc.), Machinists actually making things per their own designs, Bards learning songs, BLUs taking monster skills, etc. etc.

• That's not to say we have to go whole hog with this, but there is no reason necessarily to deny that, either, especially for "advanced" jobs that can only be reached after already having leveled a perfectly viable alternative (which would pretty well deplete any excuse for not doing BLU things on a BLU, even if it may take more time commensurate to the exceptional versatility available to that job).

I realize those ideas can seem a bit far-fetched, but I also feel that each job added should (and perhaps even must) be a means of setting healthy (or, healthier) precedents for the game. Lately, I've felt that job design has gone in the opposite direction. While some things have gotten further polish (though, imo, such is more a matter of obvious issues seeing correction only 1 to 3 expansions late than a 'pro' to offset the 'cons' of shallowed kits and homogeneity), they've also become increasingly rutted and constrained. I would hope our future jobs could attempt to lead out of that somewhat.


The BST Idea Itself:
Personally, I could see two ways of approaching BST.

The first would be the more standard, whereby you have 4 iconic pets (let's say... a panther, a bear, a hawk, and a spirit beast) acquired through the job questline. That approach in turn has two sub-types:

In sub-type A, there is a long cooldown on or other means of limiting swaps and your pet essentially becomes your "sub-role", between one leaned more towards offensive sabotage (Panther), much like Ninja, vanguard and survivability (Bear), or supportive utility and less direct means of mitigation (Hawk). The final pet, the spirit beast, would be any and all of the other three, but to a lesser degree.

For sub-type B, you instead weave pet-swaps into your rotation insofar as you are able to capitalize on their utilities. For instance, you might spend the majority of your time, at least in PvE, alongside your Panther, but would swap to Hawk for burst mobility or a helpful mob-displacement or -disarm, etc., or Bear if/when the mitigation afforded or used to cover another could save a life or allow for further uptime for yourself or another melee.

The second approach would be more like that of a BLU, if BLU hadn't been relegated to a half-assed minigame. For Blue, imagine a grand pool of 100 or so abilities, with maybe a dozen or more different "decks" that high-ranking BLUs (be that in Player vs. Player combat or Player vs. Parse) have popularized and a few among which which will tend to be optimal in a given serious (e.g., Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate) fight depending on one's party-mates. BST would be similar, except in that your pet choice would do roughly half your deck-building in and of itself (both from related player skills that combo with the pet's non-exchangeable skills and those pet skills themselves); the remainder would be a bit like "Cross-class" or "Additional" Skills, where you could teach techniques still applicable to the pet's aspect and physique and in turn allow for further player skills related to those in which you trained your pet.

That second approach is obviously the more expensive, though it could at least build off the backs of a successful BLU framework, as many of the skills you'd be copying would be the basic or most iconic skill of a given tameable beast. While BST would obviously have a smaller selection of usable mobs (only the "beasts" among the general class of "monsters"), many of the beasts could easily borrow corollary skills (those with effect or aesthetic that'd naturally fit around a given iconic and BLU-acquirable skill) from the BLU set, leaving the development largely just a process of art rather than developing effects, too.

Put simply, if BLU were left in its current muddled state, the first approach would be our only real option, but if we were resolved to make BLU a complete and compelling job, then it'd be a waste not to tie BST into that via the second approach.



I'll let this much settle for the time being; I'm typing between shifts and may not be back until late, but the framework should already give a bit to discuss. And, if it doesn't, I'll just edit this post as I flesh it out further, finally moving towards the more often covered aesthetics and capacities of the job.

[Hoehenflug]

lot of text

Your ideas are/were really ambitious. I feel like my approach of mashing Melee+EGI is a bit more likely, but aside from option B (which is SMN now I guess) I'd play this.

It's a bit like that time when HS devs told us over multiple years that player avatars would be too confusing. Or when SE killed Astro (and NIN) for me, because 'muh TP'. Oh well.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Your ideas are/were really ambitious. I feel like my approach of mashing Melee+EGI is a bit more likely, but aside from option B (which is SMN now I guess) I'd play this.

It's a bit like that time when HS devs told us over multiple years that player avatars would be too confusing. Or when SE killed Astro (and NIN) for me, because 'muh TP'. Oh well.

I am in agreement on this. While I think Shurrikhan's idea of having a small cast of pets is probably the best way they could implement a BST, it would still be a pet class with all the pet bugs. And if we take out the pets and make them a casting rotation, it's just like every other class (you compare it to SMN but I'm actually getting more MNK vibes with Couerl/Raptor forms).

I do have to say though it's a valiant effort and much better than what I've generally seen on here. Certainly hits on something that feels achievable and meaningful, as opposed to just another empty collect-a-thon.

Again, there is only one working pet in the game and that is your Companion Chocobo. I think that is probably the best jumping off point for this concept (and indeed, the Companion feature feels like it wants to naturally balloon out and flourish into a quasi-BST feature anyway).

[Hoehenflug]

Again, there is only one working pet in the game and that is your Companion Chocobo. I think that is probably the best jumping off point for this concept (and indeed, the Companion feature feels like it wants to naturally balloon out and flourish into a quasi-BST feature anyway).

I wonder if it's possible to convert the data into instances. I'd love the system to be expanded upon in any case. Back then, I mostly started FF14 for the Chocobo and I still have 0 urge to farm other mounts. Actually, Hunter also convinced me to try WoW back in the day.

In hindsight, I feel like BST could actually lure in more people than I initially realized.

If conversion isn't possible, maybe the pet could function as a companion in the overworld and as egi/faerie (with standardized kit? / other players being able to turn them off visually) in multiplayer dungeons.

[Shurrikhan]

I am in agreement on this. While I think Shurrikhan's idea of having a small cast of pets is probably the best way they could implement a BST, it would still be a pet class with all the pet bugs. And if we take out the pets and make them a casting rotation, it's just like every other class (you compare it to SMN but I'm actually getting more MNK vibes with Couerl/Raptor forms).

Just two quick notes:

• I think the idea could certainly be read either way, but I had most imagined it akin to an impactful Fists of Wind/Fire/Earth, whereby all but 3-to-6 player abilities (which total to about two-thirds of your hotbar) would be swapped in accordance with your pet (though an increased portion of them would still function rather similarly in sub-type B, since it might otherwise get just a bit overwhelming, even when amounting for the change in direction I'd like to see per Background Change #2).

• Each pet would have its own pallet of CDs, but under the same (shared) cooldowns, so you wouldn't be obliged to swap them just to perform your rotation; rather, there'd be occasional means by which less potency could still nonetheless, through utility, be an rDPS gain, be that through downtime reduced or healing GCDs saved or perhaps even a second-tank made just barely unnecessary.

• I suspect fixing pet behavior will be worthwhile regardless. To otherwise locks out far too much (including opportunities for Trusts and Squadrons). I know development has historically, and especially of late, preferred shortsighted fixes, but I don't think that's a course we can keep without some serious problems down the road.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Just two quick notes:

• I think the idea could certainly be read either way, but I had most imagined it akin to an impactful Fists of Wind/Fire/Earth, whereby all but 3-to-6 player abilities (which total to about two-thirds of your hotbar) would be swapped in accordance with your pet (though an increased portion of them would still function rather similarly in sub-type B, since it might otherwise get just a bit overwhelming, even when amounting for the change in direction I'd like to see per Background Change #2).

• Each pet would have its own pallet of CDs, but under the same (shared) cooldowns, so you wouldn't be obliged to swap them just to perform your rotation; rather, there'd be occasional means by which less potency could still nonetheless, through utility, be an rDPS gain, be that through downtime reduced or healing GCDs saved or perhaps even a second-tank made just barely unnecessary.

I don't dislike this concept at all. Again, it is very focused compared to most other BST proposals I've seen. It's like a simplified version of BLU's role swapping.

• I suspect fixing pet behavior will be worthwhile regardless. To otherwise locks out far too much (including opportunities for Trusts and Squadrons). I know development has historically, and especially of late, preferred shortsighted fixes, but I don't think that's a course we can keep without some serious problems down the road.

I think we are probably past pets in XIV. I think after years of trying to make them work, the devs have given up and want to focus on making rotations as consistent as possible, and abandoning pets was the easiest solution. Like an elemental system, I don't think they could ever bring it back without (a) players clamoring for all the previous pet jobs to be returned back to the way they were, and simultaneously (b) complaining that the whole transition is more of a regression than an evolution.

I have made peace with the fact that XIV just isn't the pet MMO, and that the concept shined a lot stronger in X, XI, and XII.

[Shurrikhan]

I think we are probably past pets in XIV. I think after years of trying to make them work, the devs have given up and want to focus on making rotations as consistent as possible, and abandoning pets was the easiest solution. Like an elemental system, I don't think they could ever bring it back without (a) players clamoring for all the previous pet jobs to be returned back to the way they were, and simultaneously (b) complaining that the whole transition is more of a regression than an evolution.

I understand that concern but I think all it needs to be averted is a unique, significant offering. For instance, consider an action that you can actually execute, queued, even when in the middle of your (the master's) animation. That's significantly more fluid than even a common oGCD.

I feel the reason the devs were able to remove pets with so little resistance (still hardly "little" on the whole, but far less than you'd see in most MMOs) was that even the initial iteration was so barebone. Going back to that meager allowance would indeed be regressive, but going past it... not so much.

Consider GW2 and their mounts, for instance. Had they merely matched other MMOs' mounts after having centered its experience for so long on having no mounts, it would have perhaps felt a betrayal; but by going beyond it to have one of the most involved mount experiences, it was applauded both by its players and those outside it, forming one of the largest contributing factors, allegedly, to new players joining with Path of Fire (the expansion in which mounts were finally released).

Simply put: Going half-assed will put development on its ass and make it look ass; actually doing a great job, though, forgives nearly all past encounters with a given subject, and often carries its own redemption or innovation story just through the contrast.

[GDofLevin]

A BST class is not impossible to be implemented. Nor should it not be implemented. However remember what Yoshi-P said? Due to that horrid plague that infected our world, a lot of projects were pushed back. Now given further time those projects might be renewed. But likely some will not. We've only seen two real BST class users. Lyon and Ran'Jit. And that was before the plague hit.

Also I still keep hearing people harp on BLU for reasons I don't understand. Why do people keep hating on BLU? Because it's limited? We've all seen how OP BLU can be. It can take over any role in the system depending on the skills chosen to be used. And honestly I like BLU for how it was introduced and how it may yet improve given TIME. The biggest problem the community is facing is people wanting everything they want now and the heck with what the actual creators are planning for us. The plague ruined a lot of things and yet people were fussing over SE still needing their subscription even though things would take longer. Remember that?

That being said. BST is still a possibility. My suggestions are as follows:

• Find a gimmick for BST that makes it awe inspiring. The ability to merge with your beast's spirit and gain improved skill sets involving the partner beasts powers. Like Ran'Jit was able to do. You could use RPR void avatar possession skill as a base.
• Find a tool or weapon that symbolically can be used with BST. Either a 1 handed Axe like in FFXI or something else. Shields are also a possibility that differ from GLD/PLD shields.
• As for the beasts themselves make them not common ordinary beasts but majestic beasts like Dawon, or Gukelheinz. Beasts you don't find out in the environment but are tailored for the class. Beasts that rise in level with you similar to your Chocobo companion.
• Another possible idea to implement is you can search out special beasts and fight them to tame them. Combine the aspects of a shaman and a BST and earn your beastly companions by connecting with their aetheric wavelengths or something that Garleans weren't capable of doing.