war out tanking pld?

[Madruk]

Parse your results, then get back to me. Till then, it's pretty obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

The main point which I think everyone is trying to get across, is paladins either need some tweaks to make them more desirable, or they need content which doesn't discourage the use of them.

[HiirNoivl]

No, there's a MRD in my moogle party right now. He tries to take hate from me because I asked him to.

He got me down to yellow on the moogle WAR in the 1st phase.... I took it back with a Sentinal Flash and then Phalanx combo.

He never could get hate back on him even with Antagonize.

I really don't know what you guys are talking about with WAR tanking better. DPS yeah... tank? No way.

[SwordCoheir]

Again.. Moogle is NOT a good example for tanking arguments, hate is subjective and can change throughout the fight easily. Like I said I could get hate after dieing on my ARC/BRD just shadowbinding them every 30 seconds regardless how much mages have cured or the PLD/GLA have Flash/Voked. I've had times I could DPS on a Mog stay flashing Red for over a minute then drop to green off the bat. Not to mention your using the one exception where PLD/GLA really shines over WAR and that's kiting multiple mobs, which WAR is at a large disadvantage w/o being able to AoE DPS.

If you want to make a competitive argument you need to find something that does not give either WAR or PLD competitive edge, something like Elder Mosshorn who just attacks with physical TP moves which puts you on even ground (Proving you got a good bunch of buddies to handle the adds). Both of you can stand in front of him and go to town competing for hate, damage taken, Blocked/Parried damage, and your top DPS and by the end you can really see who comes out on top in all areas.

[HiirNoivl]

Moogle is a mob just like any other. and in the first phase hate doesn't reset.

PLD is a better tank. WAR can't generate hate like a PLD. If you want DPS, fine, use a WAR as tank, but PLD is the better tank.

[Alerith]

Moogle is a mob just like any other. and in the first phase hate doesn't reset.

PLD is a better tank. WAR can't generate hate like a PLD. If you want DPS, fine, use a WAR as tank, but PLD is the better tank.

This simply isn't true at the moment.

You're right, WAR can't generate hate like a PLD, but it generates it in it's own way which is equally effective. And in many cases where you're fighting a single target, PLD can do the job.

But with the large amount of HP WAR has over PLD alone makes it more preferred because a PLD's greater defense doesn't make up for the HP gap.

Now, PLD has better survivability, which is great for things like Ifrit and Moogle, but when it comes to dungeons where efficiency is more valued, WAR is going to do better.

As you say, tanking is about holding hate. WAR can hold that hate from the rest of the party. And deal damage. And heal itself to an extent. It may require a little more mage attention, but at the moment, WAR can tank just as well as PLD and contribute more to the battle. (In dungeons.)

[Aceofspades]

This simply isn't true at the moment.

You're right, WAR can't generate hate like a PLD, but it generates it in it's own way which is equally effective. And in many cases where you're fighting a single target, PLD can do the job.

But with the large amount of HP WAR has over PLD alone makes it more preferred because a PLD's greater defense doesn't make up for the HP gap.

Now, PLD has better survivability, which is great for things like Ifrit and Moogle, but when it comes to dungeons where efficiency is more valued, WAR is going to do better.

As you say, tanking is about holding hate. WAR can hold that hate from the rest of the party. And deal damage. And heal itself to an extent. It may require a little more mage attention, but at the moment, WAR can tank just as well as PLD and contribute more to the battle. (In dungeons.)

wrong again , and you are being hipocritical to your other statement. Hate generation on the two jobs are COMPLETLY diffrent. WAR generates hate off of damage dealing moves combined with hate multipliers. Most of these moves require TP to start the combos and acuracy to land them. to sum this up into a tight little package , WAR generates hate best on mobs that have low resist to physical damage / low evasion / and generally lower LVLs. Anytime this is not the case PLD will easly pull hate off the WAR. PLD only requires little tp, and the combos they do are only two part and the abilties they do to start the combos have high accuarcy rate reducing the need for PLD to need TP , in wich case is not an issue when the mob deliver 250 tp by doing 500 damage. But thats not to mention their capabilities to do AOE party buffs/heals in wich case mind ( a natural pld stat) increases the hate it generates , not damage. Other moves like "spirts within" off a combo get a larger enmity boost the more % of your HP you have when the combo is used. Again, dosent require PLD to hit hard. All signs point to : PLD = endgame tank WAR = easy mob / speed run tank

[Alerith]

wrong again , and you are being hipocritical to your other statement. Hate generation on the two jobs are COMPLETLY diffrent. WAR generates hate off of damage dealing moves combined with hate multipliers. Most of these moves require TP to start the combos and acuracy to land them. to sum this up into a tight little package , WAR generates hate best on mobs that have low resist to physical damage / low evasion / and generally lower LVLs. Anytime this is not the case PLD will easly pull hate off the WAR. PLD only requires little tp, and the combos they do are only two part and the abilties they do to start the combos have high accuarcy rate reducing the need for PLD to need TP , in wich case is not an issue when the mob deliver 250 tp by doing 500 damage. But thats not to mention their capabilities to do AOE party buffs/heals in wich case mind ( a natural pld stat) increases the hate it generates , not damage. Other moves like "spirts within" off a combo get a larger enmity boost the more % of your HP you have when the combo is used. Again, dosent require PLD to hit hard. All signs point to : PLD = endgame tank WAR = easy mob / speed run tank

I agree that PLD is very capable. I'm not going to dispute that fact. And in most cases you are fighting a single target, PLD WILL win out simply because WAR's strengths are completely lost on a single target.

The only question I have is, unless I'm reading your post wrong, where does it say that the enmity from Spirit's Within is greater when your HP is higher? As far as I know, the only effect your HP has on Spirit's Within is damage.

And yes, damage translates into enmity, but I'm unaware of HP and enmity being linked for that combo.

[AlphaDragoon]

Moogle is a mob just like any other. and in the first phase hate doesn't reset.

PLD is a better tank. WAR can't generate hate like a PLD. If you want DPS, fine, use a WAR as tank, but PLD is the better tank.

Haha, what?

WAR is BY FAR a better tank than PLD at the moment. It's may not hold hate as easily (not that it has trouble doing so mind you) but it can also:

- Do ridiculous damage to single AND multiple targets
- Survive things that would kill a PLD thanks to the ton of HP
- AoE tank which PLD can't do for anything in this world

There's no real debate. WAR > PLD, even with the buffs. They need to buff PLD even more (what SE should do IMO) or nerf WAR (good old SE standard that they'll probably do which is lame).

[Aceofspades]

1) they no longer have "a ton" more hp, as if that actually helps the tank over vit/def

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thats both PLD and WAR with the same exact gear , except the shield wich adds 39 def

2) in wich way is WAR more efficient ? I agree on small boss fights or PL type situations, war is a better choice. But on hard boss fights that statement holds no watter.

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the two above are me tanking as GLD , and the one below it is PLD



this is the only one I have save with war , it is of a LS mate, main reason this is the only one I have is becuase WAR takes such extensive damage healers get less time to actually do the magic eva down debuffs and in turn the fight ends up taking a bit longer , this one closely matches the other two, all between 10-12 minute fights on Ifrit. And before you critsize the fact we parsed Ifrit, Keep in mind he is the easiest to get to and dose both magic and physical damage , soo for parsing purposes the Ifrit fight is a great canidate for testing tanks , not to mention the ability to controll the tempo of the fight to keep things as accurate as possable.

I will not claim one over the other but in a situation where damage taken is an obvious issue, WAR is in fact NOT the best tank for that situation. And as far as speed runs go, the only reason I can see PLD not being self sufficiant enough to be able to replace one of the healers with a DPS job, is if the gear was full AF or porly materia managed gear. HP , btw , is not the best stat to have on a tank. Sure it works on both magic and physical, but most magic attacks deflected completly or at least largely by SS, a spell any gld can , and should easly use to do so. that with sent/rampart , I have yet to encounter a magical attack that dose much damage at all to me.
As far as physical damage taken, wich is always the most damage taken on parses I have ever seen, it would be nothing more then a bold faced lie to say WAR can handle physical damage better then PLD. If your gona respond to this plz dont come at me with assumptions or acusations. bring cold hard facts with proof of aplication and then I will acknowledge your claims, but if you cant do the work and research I have (and what I posted is only the tip of the iceberg) then please , dont critisize where your argument holds no watter except for " this one time, at tank camp...."

[Alerith]

1) they no longer have "a ton" more hp, as if that actually helps the tank over vit/def

I stopped reading here.