Geomancer and Chemist - A Better Idea

[Archwizard]

My go-to's for that reason are Chemist and Mystic.

And if you could tell me how either one would work instead of just giving names, I might concede you have a point.

For instance, what I'm reading on Tactics' Mystic is purely a status effect-oriented job based around sapping. While my Necromancer concept used the same concept of draining enemies, it followed up with the ability to transfer that life elsewhere; basically everything else about Mystic is either CCs unusable in a raid environment, or damage-oriented.

You're gonna want to define "generic". I mean, it should be able to fulfill the things you expect out of a healer (restore HP, remove debuffs, maybe a party buff or two depending on where you want to take it).

The point I was trying to make is that they could make any healer -- literally, any -- change its cast animations to a bottle throw and slap the name "Chemist" on it, because without the connection to consumables, it's just a name and aesthetic. There are no mechanics unique to Chemist besides Mix.

You illustrated exactly this yourself when you used Astrologian as an example:

The devs had only Celestial Stasis/Galaxy Stop to go with for AST, yet they were able to build a healer out of it (at the expense of Time Mage, but something's gotta give). I think they're more than capable of doing something for Chemist as well.

And you'll note that Celestial Stasis is nothing like the iteration from Tactics, being a revival skill instead of a time stop. Meanwhile, the rest of the "Astrologer" moveset is entirely physical, save for an Esuna reskin.
Somehow I doubt "Salve" was considered enough reason to justify introducing it here as a healer. Particularly when AST's own Esuna clone was called "Exalted Detriment", and Astrologer's physical moves greatly outnumbered it.

FFXIV's Astrologian has more derivation from Time Mage, Gambler, and even Chemist in its abilities than from "Astrologer", to the point I would call it a completely separate job from what's presented in Tactics and closer to a renamed Time Mage.
To introduce Time Mage at this point as a separate job from AST just because nobody has Haste yet for very good balance-related reasons... would be like introducing Chemist as a separate healer now just because nobody has Mix for balance-related reasons.

Chemists carry several mixing tools that help them perform their job as field medics. At the risk of using a concept that sounds borrowed from MCH, these tools have limited energy that recharges over time naturally. So gameplay would involve using heals and other abilities efficiently while ensuring your Tool Energy (for lack of better terminology) doesn't bottom out, because if it does energy recovery gets a penalty until your energy hits around 25-30%. Needless to say, you'd get some abilities to manipulate or help with energy recovery.

And while you could theoretically build an alternate resource just to not have to use MP, then you run into the question of whether or not said resource would be affected by Piety -- if no, that becomes a dead stat for the job, and if yes, you've put the devs through the work of reskinning MP just to say it doesn't use MP.

Offensively, CHM would deal damage with a modified firearm (this part is tricky because creating a distinction from MCH would be a problem) that shoots cast iron bullets but can be loaded with poison syringes and such. Unlike MCH, their shots would have cast times.

Side-note, and said at the risk of getting side-tracked by having someone erroneously accuse me of using this as some weak justification for my stance, in spite of literally everything else I've said to back my position otherwise:

You ever notice how the only jobs that have ranged weapons are Ranged DPS? Casters don't, and even while RDM uses a rapier, one would think having Scathe be an auto-attack for BLM would be obvious. Healers don't; even Astrologian has to slash people with their cards from close-up, instead of throwing them like Urianger is fond of.
I suspect this has something to do with not wanting to add auto-attack damage to the roles' repertoire in order to increase the value of GCD damage, particularly since healers are expected to switch targets frequently to do their job and casters are expected to... well, cast.

But also, as Shurrikhan has pointed out many times before, simple guns don't exactly have a lot of payload. And as you yourself pointed out, distinction from MCH would be problematic, especially with their guns getting larger and larger, GNB already stepping to them, and ShB making a point of expanding some weapontypes (ie giving WAR a hammer and BLM a unique scythe).
Unless we end up with someone who has dual pistols like Merlwyb (which, I would add before you start, would mean no free hands for mixing or tossing chemicals), it would be difficult to push another gun-toter at this point in the game.

[Duelle]

And if you could tell me how either one would work instead of just giving names, I might concede you have a point.

Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't aware I had to draft a design document for this discussion.

The write up I made for Mystic a long time ago took an approach similar to AST where a concept was built upon from near scratch. In the case of Mystic, it was the theme of duality (after all, JP guides call it Ying-Yang Mage) by tying the job to XIV's own avatars of duality, Nald'thal. If I recall, the gameplay took elements from Thaumaturge gameplay but applied them to swapping between "death" (AKA dealing damage) and "life" (healing), much like how the traders represent both aspects when put together. This was during a time when Cleric Stance was still a thing and all healers were expected to use it, so I'd have to go back and rebuild it with the current design philosophies in mind.

As for Chemist, you already have some rough ideas of how I think it could work.

The point I was trying to make is that they could make any healer change its cast animations to a bottle throw and slap the name "Chemist" on it, because without the connection to consumables, it's just a name and aesthetic.

That's not much of an argument, especially considering Cure, Physic and Benefic at the baseline are the same thing with different particle effects. Same goes for standard rez, standard AoE heal and standard debuff remover. And as I said, consumables mean nothing in context of class design here, because if we suddenly care about consumables we'd have to put that burden on several current jobs for the sake of consistency. I'm sure MCHs would love to have bag space occupied by bullet pouches (or perhaps oils/batteries for their rooks and queens), BRDs with arrow quivers, NIN with ninjutsu tools and so on. Consumables are one of those all-or-nothing things; either everyone in the roster has to use consumables where applicable (with all the problems that invites), or we move on from consumables in search of ways to make the job work.

There are no mechanics unique to Chemist besides Mix.

Which at most is a hurdle to overcome and means you're gonna have to expand of what makes the job tick. As I mentioned before, AST in FF Tactics was limited to just Galaxy Stop because Olan Durai was a guest character in one mission, but that didn't stop the FFXIV devs from adding things to it and adjusting how the concept worked to make a healer out of it. Thus my point that the same could be done with Chemist stands.

And while you could theoretically build an alternate resource just to not have to use MP, then you run into the question of whether or not said resource would be affected by Piety -- if no, that becomes a dead stat for the job, and if yes, you've put the devs through the work of reskinning MP just to say it doesn't use MP.

You mean like all those other resources the devs made up for every job in the game, regardless of whether they were needed (see: PLD)? Somehow giving one to a potential healer becomes too much work for the devs? Really?

As I said in my prior post, stat-wise I'd just put it on Aiming gear and call it a day. Putting a non-magical healer on magical healer gear makes little sense and would indeed lead to wasted/dead stats. I'm sure there'd be loot drama, but the only alternative I can come up with is giving healer gear the ARR MNK gear treatment where it had two main stats (STR and DEX in the case of MNK gear) to accommodate the newcomer NIN. An alternative alternative would be having Piety work differently for this new job. Off the top of my head, have it modify ability recast timers (with diminishing returns) or reduce how much Tool Energy is consumed by abilities. This leaves us with weird nomenclature, but my first choice would be just putting CHM on Aiming gear.

You ever notice how the only jobs that have ranged weapons are Ranged DPS? Casters don't, and even while RDM uses a rapier, one would think having Scathe be an auto-attack for BLM would be obvious. Healers don't; even Astrologian has to slash people with their cards from close-up, instead of throwing them like Urianger is fond of.

I suspect this has something to do with not wanting to add auto-attack damage to the roles' repertoire in order to increase the value of GCD damage, particularly since healers are expected to switch targets frequently to do their job and casters are expected to... well, cast.

I was thinking about mentioning this when I made up that suggestion for Chemist, but one of the things about their weapon would be the inability to deal auto attacks. Assuming we left everything else alone, the weapon would simply be unable to do AAs and instead damage would entirely come from abilities. As for concerns of firearm size and payload, you could also change the weapon to something that cannot be quickly reloaded but shoots a bigger payload, further justifying why CHM wouldn't be able to auto-attack from range.

An alternative would be the job having a mallet as its main weapon (or perhaps a small crowbar-like weapon that is a sort of main key/lever to operate the medic tools CHM uses), and use something akin to the syringer from Fallout 4 for poison/tranq darts and launching catalysts. Yet another alternative would be going with a different ranged weapon; non-mechanical crossbows are still available, as are combat slingshots (bonus being that then the job could lob tar bombs that can be ignited with a catalyst, healing "grenades" that create a mist that restores HP, vials that release Pluto vapors to fortify allies and so on).

[Brandedblade]

Considering the fact RDM wears alot of long flowy mage robes by virtue of being a caster, chemist wearing healer robes is the last thing on my mind concerning coming up with design ideas. As far as the auto attack thing they could either just program chemist guns to scale off mind. Or give them a level 1 trait (Chemical Rounds is the name that comes to mind) that clearly states their auto attacks deal incredibly low potency unaspected damage and has the appropriate range.

[Archwizard]

Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't aware I had to draft a design document for this discussion.

I'm not asking for an entire design document, I'm asking for literally any specifics about what the job actually does or how it plays.

That's not much of an argument, especially considering Cure, Physic and Benefic at the baseline are the same thing with different particle effects. Same goes for standard rez, standard AoE heal and standard debuff remover.

There's a certain degree of "same-y" expected when it comes to healers, insofar as all require a certain number of archetypal skills in order to keep up with encounter mechanics. Sharing gear, role actions (regardless of animations), and general limitations is something that can generally be accepted for basically any other role with regards to balance, because to go through the hoops of avoiding them would be purely for the sake of avoiding them.

My concern with Chemist is that creating a separate job that utilizes the same mechanics as another existing job -- particularly in examples that mention AST cards or seals, where the example is even within the same role -- makes that job redundant and offers nothing to the playstyle.

Which at most is a hurdle to overcome and means you're gonna have to expand of what makes the job tick. As I mentioned before, AST in FF Tactics was limited to just Galaxy Stop because Olan Durai was a guest character in one mission, but that didn't stop the FFXIV devs from adding things to it and adjusting how the concept worked to make a healer out of it.

You're talking in circles and ignoring my responses. I already explained that 14's AST is related to Astrologer from FF Tactics in name only. Stop acting like they magically conjured another dozen or so additives for it from thin air, when you know they just renamed Time Mage.

You mean like all those other resources the devs made up for every job in the game, regardless of whether they were needed (see: PLD)? Somehow giving one to a potential healer becomes too much work for the devs? Really?

The unique job resources are built resources that determine the flow of the rotation. MP is used as a spender and limiter for each job that uses it, so that they're not just reliant on CDs for their strongest heals. In the hands of a WHM it keeps them from just spamming Cure II/III, Medica II and Raise, and encourages them to use more efficient forms of healing like Cure and the Afflatus line. Also, jobs in other roles don't have their spender resource gain determined by an unavoidable gear stat -- partly because TP was removed.

As I said in my prior post, stat-wise I'd just put it on Aiming gear and call it a day. Putting a non-magical healer on magical healer gear makes little sense and would indeed lead to wasted/dead stats.

Considering the fact RDM wears alot of long flowy mage robes by virtue of being a caster, chemist wearing healer robes is the last thing on my mind concerning coming up with design ideas. As far as the auto attack thing they could either just program chemist guns to scale off mind. Or give them a level 1 trait (Chemical Rounds is the name that comes to mind) that clearly states their auto attacks deal incredibly low potency unaspected damage and has the appropriate range.

Somehow two mutually exclusive, conflicting arguments that are treated as supporting one another. But for another point, that is one of the weakest parts of the opening argument to get hung up on, since I already covered both.

I was thinking about mentioning this when I made up that suggestion for Chemist, but one of the things about their weapon would be the inability to deal auto attacks.

Then why would it even have a ranged weapon.

Look, here's the problem: You are still arguing aesthetics and cosmetics as a response to lack of mechanics.

An alternative would be the job having a mallet as its main weapon (or perhaps a small crowbar-like weapon that is a sort of main key/lever to operate the medic tools CHM uses)

Surprised it took this long to get around to just saying "give them a hammer since MCH doesn't use one."

[Vendalwind]

I'm not asking for an entire design document, I'm asking for literally any specifics about what the job actually does or how it plays.

but you have a habit of jumping on anything thats not fully developed without a positive thought...
So you could say you aren't asking for an entire design document, but if its anything short of an entire design document you have been creating flaws out of thin air and only looking at the downsides of peoples ideas rather than the positives.

You're talking in circles and ignoring my responses. I already explained that 14's AST is related to Astrologer from FF Tactics in name only. Stop acting like they magically conjured another dozen or so additives for it from thin air, when you know they just renamed Time Mage.

...what? its closer to zodiac styled than time mage.... Also Astro wasn't really a class in FFT. one character could use astro and he wasn't even recruit able. Astro is probably the most unique class to FFXIV currently as the tactics astro was more of a shield mage/status support unit. If it was a time mage in any sense it would have
Haste
Haste 2
Slow
Slow 2
Stop
Don't Move
Float
Reflect
Quick
Demi
Demi 2
Meteor
Teleport. Which are all iconic time mage abilities.

AST has almost no connection to the time mage style.
Point: AST has a less of a connection to time mage than to chemist, and AST is only connected to chemist in its current form by the devs original design issues that you mentioned in your first post.
Time mage would be very difficult to get right tho in this game for many many reasons.

The ASTs moves that look similar to clocks are horoscope wheels. Even redraw is not actually a clock but an array of cards spinning out from the Astro's arm. The only aspects of AST even slightly related to time are lightspeed, and diurnal vs nocturnal sect i spose.

The unique job resources are built resources that determine the flow of the rotation. MP is used as a spender and limiter for each job that uses it, so that they're not just reliant on CDs for their strongest heals. In the hands of a WHM it keeps them from just spamming Cure II/III, Medica II and Raise, and encourages them to use more efficient forms of healing like Cure and the Afflatus line. Also, jobs in other roles don't have their spender resource gain determined by an unavoidable gear stat -- partly because TP was removed.

Spender AND limiter. so couldn't a separate resource with more unique qualities be developed for chemist that works as both a limiter and spender? IE very simply a charge system of components where multiple components are used for a single cast. You could even make the charge speed of the components for this section of the class tied to piety if you can dispel disbelief for it.
Point being getting antsy about an alternate resource on a healer than MP is stupid. There are many other forms of resources that could have limiters imposed on them such that they would work similarly when overused.

Then why would it even have a ranged weapon.

Look, here's the problem: You are still arguing aesthetics and cosmetics as a response to lack of mechanics.

You are the only one requiring mechanics in this discussion.

It's not a problem. When designing something most people start with aesthetics and then work from there to discover how mechanics would allow those goals of class style to be achieved. If you aren't using aesthetics and playstyle for the basis of your class design what are you even making? You are still treating peoples creative ideas like trash just because they are opposed to your original statements and desires.

Also heck you could give it a chefs knife as they could also equip daggers in fft, and then you'd have a weapon they used to help prepare ingredients, wouldn't be my choice tho.

I'd just straight up give them a potion filled belt as their weapon where a single potion is drawn from the hip when unsheathed. (similar in uniqueness to how Monk weapons sometimes overtake the gloves cosmetics and stay on hands)

[Archwizard]

but you have a habit of jumping on anything thats not fully developed without a positive thought...

Half the theme of the thread is literally "I've yet to hear a fully-formed thought about implementing Chemist besides 'make it a healer'."
If you come into the thread and give a half-baked thought in response, that's on you for missing the point of the thread.

Also Astro wasn't really a class in FFT. one character could use astro and he wasn't even recruit able.

I'm not having this argument on two completely contradictory fronts, if you and Duelle want to conflict with one another then talk to each other, not me.

If it was a time mage in any sense it would have

Hold that thought for a moment.

I point out that Chemist isn't Chemist if it lacks connection to consumables or Mix -- its single most iconic and consistent skill -- and get flak for being too literal about a concept not really being Chemist without.
But Astrologian can't be based on Time Mage because it doesn't have a dozen or so specific spells? Including ranked skills?

Okay, sure, let's play that game. Just to examine your list: Lightspeed is the functional equivalent of a personal Haste (or as close as we'll get since Yoshi-P has already said we'll never get Haste, because a mobility buff of that size would be required for most group compositions and make the game too easy) and AST makes up for precise lack of Quick with other damage buffs, because while it used to give Speed buffs most jobs avoid it like the plague; Demi is just a rename of Gravity which Astrologian already has; you're conveniently leaving out Regen (which is the entirety of Diurnal Sect) and that Nocturnal Sect is entirely based on barriers (even if they're not named Reflect and Shell, which aren't specific to Time Mage either); Float is... impractical? At best? for most raid content; BLM already has Teleport (Aetherial Manipulation) and Meteor (LB3); and the other moves are all CCs.

While I have my own thoughts about CC in this game, this isn't the thread for those. For now we'll ignore that Repose makes most of those listed redundant, and just say there's a reason even Repose isn't cast in most dungeons.

AST is Time Mage through the filter of 14's demands.

Point being getting antsy about an alternate resource on a healer than MP is stupid.

I'm pointing out that the only reason to make an alternate resource to substitute MP is purely to claim the job doesn't use MP, even if the extra resource will just be a copy of MP only worse.
It's pedantic, not additive to gameplay.

If you say "Chemist shouldn't use MP because it's not magical", the onus is on you to explain how it should work otherwise while still being balanced against existing healers, not on me to accept that offhand.

You are the only one requiring mechanics in this discussion.

That.
Is.
The.
Literal.
Purpose.
Of this thread.

I ask for people to explain how they actually want the job to play, and the responses are about what weapon it uses and repeated dismissal of the concern that the mechanics are lacking.
This is exactly why I demonstrated in the OP that the job would be better-suited as a DPS: lack of forethought about its mechanics as an actual job, much less a healer.
Right now calling it "Chemist, but like, without consumables" means as much to me as calling it "Medic", or introducing a tank named "Sentinel" and DPS called "Ravager". Which come to think of it might be a really cool name for a Spellblade concept, actually...

Stop throwing things at the wall and talking about how the job is "iconic", and demonstrate to me why "Healer Job Concept" would be worth playing, much less asking the devs to add.

[Shurrikhan]

You are the only one requiring mechanics in this discussion.

Is that not the whole purpose of the OP -- to set the purpose for the thread that follows?

Wouldn't it be more outrageous to join a thread without intention to partake in the task the thread's creator has set forth?

That's not to say we can't argue with his premise, but we should at least be offering as much proof towards our point as he's presented for his, no? Sadly, to progress the argument at all, though, that means taking the one step further into at least attempting a prototype.

This thread's existence isn't going to preclude the possibility for a CHM healer if the devs already have decent ideas for it; at worst, it will simply indicate that some players feel that simply throwing another auxiliary mechanic atop the same universal healer base is not an acceptable product, let alone an unoriginal auxiliary mechanic.