Paladin Updates

[jwang]

I don't get your point with the above picture posts in comparing the two jobs. What exactly are you trying to prove with it? And in WAR vs. PLD debate, it's mainly on playstyle. A good WAR tank is equally viable as a good PLD tank in terms of enmity, the only difference is WAR tanks have stupid amounts of HP and PLD tanks have shield block and higher defense. The problem with this is that current damage formulas favor high HP builds for a bigger margin of error for healers, and WAR's DPS makes it a more favorable choice over PLD. Arguing that WAR needs a second healer is invalid as well, since there has already been runs done with a single healer and a WAR tank, and even with PLD tanks most groups like to bring 2 healers for insurance. To make matters worse for PLD, a WAR can self heal as well, though not as frequently as PLD. Even though they have a smaller pool of self healing abilities, WAR can use these on the run and cannot be interrupted outside of stun, petrified, and pacification status effects. A PLD CAN be interrupted, cannot heal himself while moving, and has a limited number of heals tied to his MP pool. The best way to balance the two jobs in my opinion is to make shield blocks prevent interruption, increase the MP restored from Outmaneuver, and make Holy Succor an instant cast.

[Rydin]

I don't get your point with the above picture posts in comparing the two jobs. What exactly are you trying to prove with it? And in WAR vs. PLD debate, it's mainly on playstyle. A good WAR tank is equally viable as a good PLD tank in terms of enmity, the only difference is WAR tanks have stupid amounts of HP and PLD tanks have shield block and higher defense. The problem with this is that current damage formulas favor high HP builds for a bigger margin of error for healers, and WAR's DPS makes it a more favorable choice over PLD. Arguing that WAR needs a second healer is invalid as well, since there has already been runs done with a single healer and a WAR tank, and even with PLD tanks most groups like to bring 2 healers for insurance. To make matters worse for PLD, a WAR can self heal as well, though not as frequently as PLD. Even though they have a smaller pool of self healing abilities, WAR can use these on the run and cannot be interrupted outside of stun, petrified, and pacification status effects. A PLD CAN be interrupted, cannot heal himself while moving, and has a limited number of heals tied to his MP pool. The best way to balance the two jobs in my opinion is to make shield blocks prevent interruption, increase the MP restored from Outmaneuver, and make Holy Succor an instant cast.

I think he is showing that the HP difference while wearing the same non-af gear is not as big....
Its an odd issue and there are tons and tons of different ways to fix it...
The thing is.... I don't know if it's a cultural difference in terms of how we approach problems or whatever... but SE's fixes are always completely different than how I (we?) would expect them to fix it.
Improving cover (And revealing the hidden effect) and Divine Veil?

It's hard (See: impossible) to compare HP vs Defense, or HP vs physical damage mitigation... and even if you could, it's situational. HP doesn't always win.... If WAR had 100 more HP but PLD had insane damage mitigation then yes... damage mitigation would win. But right now WAR has quite a bit more HP than PLD (Definitely more than 100).

The one advantage HP has (As stated by several people in this thread) is that it is effective for both Physical and Magic attacks. Magic Def has kind of been spit on by the Devs....
Yes you can improve one element with jewelry and materia... but people are hesitant about using elemental veil materia, because HP materia is more versatile and less situational

Also.. I would like to see firm testing done on Blocks vs Parries (I may even do it myself)

At the end of the day... Can they both co-exist?
When MRD/WAR is the preferred tank... no one uses GLA/PLD... and when GLA/PLD is preferred, people tend to stay away from MRD/WAR..... will there ever be a time when they both have a place in this game?
Will you ever see both a PLD and a WAR in the same party on a regular basis?

[Kiara]

It's hard (See: impossible) to compare HP vs Defense, or HP vs physical damage mitigation... and even if you could, it's situational. HP doesn't always win.... If WAR had 100 more HP but PLD had insane damage mitigation then yes... damage mitigation would win. But right now WAR has quite a bit more HP than PLD (Definitely more than 100).

The one advantage HP has (As stated by several people in this thread) is that it is effective for both Physical and Magic attacks. Magic Def has kind of been spit on by the Devs....
Yes you can improve one element with jewelry and materia... but people are hesitant about using elemental veil materia, because HP materia is more versatile and less situational

Hi Rydin,

Well said.

And to make the divide even greater is the fact that Warrior is a far better Damage Dealer than Paladin, and has its core Enmity Combo be tied into its best Weaponskill as well (Steel Cyclone) (vs. Paladin's Spirits Within off of a successful block scenario only).

It's a good question: What *would* a standout Defensive change be to make Paladin desirable again?

In light of Warrior with the highest HP totals in the game, very good Enmity generation / ability to hold Hate, good DPS and good AOE, and some good Defensive abilities, what could SE do to make Paladin - a Job that by its very nature is "Defense Only / Tank" - a *good, desirable* choice?

Is it an inherent Defense boost (via Trait or just inherent when switching to the Job) of, say, +25% Boost to Defense (over its current rating)? Does it also include Magic Defense boost of some kind? (which would certainly make it standout)

Fixing Blocking & Shields and its calculations would help as well (especially vs. higher level "End Game" enemies).

Paladin is certainly better after this hot patch than it was during 1.21, but it's not enough.

[Rydin]

Hi Rydin,

Well said.

And to make the divide even greater is the fact that Warrior is a far better Damage Dealer than Paladin, and has its core Enmity Combo be tied into its best Weaponskill as well (Steel Cyclone) (vs. Paladin's Spirits Within off of a successful block scenario only).

It's a good question: What *would* a standout Defensive change be to make Paladin desirable again?

In light of Warrior with the highest HP totals in the game, very good Enmity generation / ability to hold Hate, good DPS and good AOE, and some good Defensive abilities, what could SE do to make Paladin - a Job that by its very nature is "Defense Only / Tank" - a *good, desirable* choice?

Is it an inherent Defense boost (via Trait or just inherent when switching to the Job) of, say, +25% Boost to Defense (over its current rating)? Does it also include Magic Defense boost of some kind? (which would certainly make it standout)

Fixing Blocking & Shields and its calculations would help as well (especially vs. higher level "End Game" enemies).

Paladin is certainly better after this hot patch than it was during 1.21, but it's not enough.

And furthermore... if PLD gets a boost and becomes the new go-to tank again... will WAR just fade to the side?

[SwordCoheir]

Hi Rydin,
*Stuff*

Lets not forget Vengance gives WAR a 50% damage reduction damage return for 15 seconds, and Rampage gives them retarded amounts of self healing capability that work with AoEs.

[Kiara]

Lets not forget Vengance gives WAR a 50% damage reduction damage return for 15 seconds, and Rampage gives them retarded amounts of self healing capability that work with AoEs.

Hi Sword,

Great point as well. I hope further improvements are coming down the pipeline (and soon), before the player base gets it stuck in their mindset (and forms long-standing prejudices) that "Paladins suck."