Paladin Updates

[Aceofspades]

"Nobody here is trying to OP PLD. There is currently a legitimate problem with PLD being able to perform on an ideal level. First of all, defense is near useless. At the moment, greater HP is better than higher DEF. Secondly, PLD has almost no difference in MDEF compared to WAR. PLD brings less damage to the table, and can't AoE damage"

REALY!!?? LMFAO omfg , dude that is the most retarded thing I have ever read on this forum. DEF is useless huh? wonder why then , when taking physical attacks from boss mobs, protect, def food, and def on gear any class makes the damage taken go down? If thats the case , hell no one would care about a Tank, we would all go in as BLM or WHM or MNK and destroy everthing, Their is a reason WHMs get hit for more by physical attacks then another Job with more DEF.... just stop posting , that was like the dumbest thing i have ever read. OH and there is no MAGICAL DEF, dont get me wrong , would be nice, but it dosent exist, just resist and evasion. In wich case no job has higher of any of that without buffs or materia/ gear . not like it would matter, in every fight i have ever parsed physical damage ALWAYS took top on the damage the boss did the most damage with, and yes, the more def i stacked the lower that number got.

[Takinagi]

lol this guy...

[Arcell]

"Nobody here is trying to OP PLD. There is currently a legitimate problem with PLD being able to perform on an ideal level. First of all, defense is near useless. At the moment, greater HP is better than higher DEF. Secondly, PLD has almost no difference in MDEF compared to WAR. PLD brings less damage to the table, and can't AoE damage"

REALY!!?? LMFAO omfg , dude that is the most retarded thing I have ever read on this forum. DEF is useless huh? wonder why then , when taking physical attacks from boss mobs, protect, def food, and def on gear any class makes the damage taken go down? If thats the case , hell no one would care about a Tank, we would all go in as BLM or WHM or MNK and destroy everthing, Their is a reason WHMs get hit for more by physical attacks then another Job with more DEF.... just stop posting , that was like the dumbest thing i have ever read. OH and there is no MAGICAL DEF, dont get me wrong , would be nice, but it dosent exist, just resist and evasion. In wich case no job has higher of any of that without buffs or materia/ gear . not like it would matter, in every fight i have ever parsed physical damage ALWAYS took top on the damage the boss did the most damage with, and yes, the more def i stacked the lower that number got.

Defense IS mostly useless. Proof:

http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html

Sorry to say, HP is king. That's why you don't take a mage or DD as a tank. PLD and WAR especially has more HP. Not to mention tank has healers paying attention to their health specifically all the time.

Also on your test with a WAR not being able to take back hate, I call bullshit. With Antagonize and Sentinel, ALL actions generate more hate. Not to mention their primary hate generation combo only has a 30 second cooldown. Add onto that they can also use Flash, Provoke and Rampart, they have mostly all the same tools as PLD. And then consider Vengeance and Collusion. WAR can steal hate off of a rival tanking PLD's combo. That WAR had no idea what they were doing if they can't keep hate over a PLD.

[Evaddaragon]

Defense IS mostly useless. Proof:

http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html

Sorry to say, HP is king. That's why you don't take a mage or DD as a tank. PLD and WAR especially has more HP. Not to mention tank has healers paying attention to their health specifically all the time.

Also on your test with a WAR not being able to take back hate, I call bullshit. With Antagonize and Sentinel, ALL actions generate more hate. Not to mention their primary hate generation combo only has a 30 second cooldown. Add onto that they can also use Flash, Provoke and Rampart, they have mostly all the same tools as PLD. And then consider Vengeance and Collusion. WAR can steal hate off of a rival tanking PLD's combo. That WAR had no idea what they were doing if they can't keep hate over a PLD.

Don't bother answering to Ace, Arcell. I think everyboby at least agrees on that.


Just a side-note, though : The argument about WAR having its main enmity building combo on a 30 second recast timer is moot. PLD's main one is on a... TEN second recast. Plus it has Phalanx + Spirits Within every minute. WAR doesn't have better accuracy (accuracy gear not taken into account) than PLD and now that PLD can combine Outmaneuver with Divine Veil for faster MP and TP regeneration, you can pretty much readily spam Fast Blade + Flat Blade almost as soon as it is available.

Doesn't change the fact, however, that HP is indeed king of tanking stats right now. Even if defense suddenly got better, WAR doesn't have a lot less defense than PLD. What would change things is further improve block mitigation. Make it possible to block magic attacks, and negate damage completely when you block. If Block > Parry, then there already would be quite a difference.

[Nanamix]

Buff PLD's HP. Nuff said.

[Skies]

Buff PLD's HP. Nuff said.

That would, sadly, run counter to it's design. Paladin is being designed as a mitigation-based tank. Regardless of wether or not SE is failing at doing this, i'd REALLY be happy if people's suggestions kept in line with what they've said was the design style of the job.

[Takinagi]

That would, sadly, run counter to it's design. Paladin is being designed as a mitigation-based tank. Regardless of wether or not SE is failing at doing this, i'd REALLY be happy if people's suggestions kept in line with what they've said was the design style of the job.

Why would it counter it's design?! I'm confused

[Alerith]

Why would it counter it's design?! I'm confused

I think he's referring to how SE wants PLD to have less max HP but have greater damage mitigation. In which case, raising their HP would run counter to their intended design.

Not that the intended design is working as intended....

[Takinagi]

Maybe they should give us shell back and 100 defence more then warrior. I can make up the extra HP in gear but I just loose so many other great stats doing so.

[Arkine]

Currently the basic set up in almost every event PT is 1 tank, 2 healers, 5 DDs (or 4 DDs 1 BRD).

Now that set up seems alright, I think its even very fitting for a group that uses a WAR tank. WAR's basic idea is that it does alot of damage, takes alot of damage but makes up for it with Rampage, a large HP pool and frequent critical hits that restore HP generate enmity and does damage.

It does that perfectly, and since it lacks the "on demand/in shit happens" heal with 2 healers backing the WAR up it seems like its working as intended.

Now PLD... how I envision it, is supposed to be such a stellar tank, that does little damage, takes little damage and basically outlasts its opponents instead of just destroying them (That's WAR's approach) now with that in mind, I believe that PLD should do that so well that it only really requires 1 (thats right, ONE) healer backing it up.

It should be defensive enough that it should say for example be able to hold its own if the WHM needs to raise a DD that doesn't quite understand that glowing cracks of lava under your feet is bad for you.

Thus, a set up with a PLD should be: PLD WHM 6DDs (or 5DDs and a BRD for support). Yeah, PLD doing its only job well enough that it doesn't need 2 healers cure bombing it to survive. (Granted you can get 2 healers or just have the BRD heal the DDs if you want, I'm saying that it shouldn't be REQUIRED to have 2 with PLD like it is with WAR)

Now to reach that goal PLD needs a serious overhaul.

Blocking rate needs to be ALOT higher. (FFXI's system was good with this, small shields block little damage but blocks often and the largest shields blocked most of the damage but didnt proc as often)
MP recovery needs adjustment (Cover with AF body is cool, but its hard to keep someone within 8yalms in something like Ifrit, and Outmaneuver 3-14mp a block is just sad even with Divine Veil up, maybe Auto-refresh or an ability that changes TP into MP or make that an extra effect with spirits within instead of increased ACC or maybe fix Outmaneuver to be returning more than 10mp a block)
Damage taken is too high. (My WAR takes 700-900 damage per hit on Ifrit without Rampart/Sent whatever up, my PLD (Full AF when it 1st came out) took around that much, less but not by alot, but I was just eyeballing it at the time, I'm thinking PLD should be taking 100-200Dmg with blocks, 400-500 when not, that puts you at enough risk to need a healer but not enough that you need 2 to be cure bombing you like a WAR to survive, which is a fair trade off)
Magic damage is also too high. (I don't know what to do about this, I guess you can block some stuff, I guess if shield blocks that too it'll be too OP, maybe give Holy Succor a magic shield buff every time its casted. 200dmg? lasts 10secs? lowering Sentinel recast for GLA to 30-45 secs via Enhanced Sent trait maybe? they can take Enhanced Phsycal Defense out, 12def extra on EPD3 is meh anyway and replace it with a buff to magic def trait of some sort.)

I know what I'm asking for sounds pretty OP, but if you take a look at how WAR is atm, and the fact that Tanking is PLD's main and so far (to me) its only Role it makes as much sense for it to excel at it as it does for BLM when it comes to nuking, or WHM with healing.