Paladin Updates

[Evaddaragon]

Well as for the Cover info, I indeed did some tests. We went to do some level 50 faction leves. We did them all : Wolf, Buffalo, Drake. Did about 10 fights. First fight we were 3 (PLD (me), WAR and WHM), then after we had one WHM, me, and the 3 others rotated between DRG, WAR, MNK and BLM. Not once did we have a BRD.

Guess what ? I'm happy to say I never ran out of MP. Cover works exactly like Kaeko says. MP returns works even if I'm not covering someone with hate. I only have to activate the ability. Phobos is also right to mention using Divine Veil + Outmaneuver to help, however I used it outside of Cover… The AF body gives you 25% of damage into MP… guess what happens if you block ? That's right, reduced damage, therefore reduced MP returns. Hence why I used Divine Veil + Outmaneuver outside of Cover.

And I suppose I also had crappy DDs if I'm to believe what was said above… because guess what ? I focused on main bosses on all fights, and kept hate. :P Wasn't able to keep all the lesser mobs though… Steel Cyclone is, after all, one hell of a fantastic ability. lol

I could afford the luxury of spamming Stoneskin on myself and even heal with Holy Succor. By the time we were done, I asked myself "What's a BRD ?"

Granted, this is just one example, and I certainly will still admit that WAR is better suited for a dungeon speed-run. Its higher HP is also a better safety net of bosses' powerful magical attacks that do over 2500 of damage. I certainly had fun testing it though.

[Aceofspades]

had a hate hold compition with a LS WAR who also thinks WAR is a better tank. We got to the princess, Initially I got hate and kept it, all my abilites were on cool down after she built enough tp and stole hate. after about 4 minutes i finally (slowly) got it back , but i did get it back and at that point she was un able to take hate back. Also side note , in the 4 minutes she had hate, WHMs (2 of em) ran out of mp with a bard using mp songs to counter. The biggest advantage i had in that fight was my gear (and obvious knowledge of the job). with gear I have 757 def, 3600 somthin hp and 300 somthin vit. she had on full AF WAR.
I would agrue , from what I saw, WAR dose in fact need a 1k boost over PLD , they are that squeshy. Now what would happen with WAR in my gear? not sure, I have equiped my WAR in my Cobalt gear, HP is only 300 higher then that of PLD, and i only equiped hate on my belt, only has +8 cuz my belt is HQ and didnt wana risk blowing it up. Will give WAR props on hate control over damage dealing. But the strain on the WHMs are certainly noticeable. Also I noticed all the buffs that war did prior to a tp move, tbh , that seems a bit harder to orgistrate over doing PLD moves.
And to clear up some trollers mis informing, I am NOT one sided on this issue, I do think war is a valuable tank, in its proper enviorment. I however do not belive WAR is the best tank and PLD is useless. Best I can fiugre out is people are trolling or they are trying to convice other and possable SE that PLD is still broke in order to possably OP PLD. Best advice I could give SE is , Rather then having 3 or 4 hate moves just combine the amount of hate of all moves into one. Makes action managment alot easier but other then that I think PLD is perfectly fine and competes very well with war on all fronts of tanking.
I did notice somone mention "Its not the question if PLD can replace WAR but can PLD replace a WHM to allow space in the PT for more DD?" Answer is, in some fights, yes. With a good healer and PLD who knows the class, you can have one healer in the DH oger fight, Ifrit, Princess fight, pretty much ALL the HNM fights and any normal party grind. A well equiped and decently knowledged PLD can solo tank 10-15 lvl 50-57 mobs with pretty much no heals aside from blowover from AOE heals or Regen.

sorry for the long message.

[Alerith]

had a hate hold compition with a LS WAR who also thinks WAR is a better tank. We got to the princess, Initially I got hate and kept it, all my abilites were on cool down after she built enough tp and stole hate. after about 4 minutes i finally (slowly) got it back , but i did get it back and at that point she was un able to take hate back. Also side note , in the 4 minutes she had hate, WHMs (2 of em) ran out of mp with a bard using mp songs to counter. The biggest advantage i had in that fight was my gear (and obvious knowledge of the job). with gear I have 757 def, 3600 somthin hp and 300 somthin vit. she had on full AF WAR.

To which I reply:

Would just like to add, soo this thread dosent go the way of others, if your gona post "facts" about this subject, could you provide sufficient evidance to support your theory? just claims alone are not only mis leading but often spark useless debate the essentualy serves no purpose other then to make people feel smarter then they realy are. Fraps, parse, or even discription of the abilties you talk about would be great to help keep this discusion literal and not " well WAR just FEELS like a better tank" or "I can tank the world solo on my PLD". not my thread just asking that people post responsably not just whaty THEY experianced and have no way to back it.

I would agrue , from what I saw, WAR dose in fact need a 1k boost over PLD , they are that squeshy.

They take nearly the same amount of damage. The difference isn't large enough to be noteworthy at the moment, because WAR HP kinda nullifies the difference.

Now what would happen with WAR in my gear? not sure, I have equiped my WAR in my Cobalt gear, HP is only 300 higher then that of PLD, and i only equiped hate on my belt, only has +8 cuz my belt is HQ and didnt wana risk blowing it up.

May I see a screenshot of your PLD's HP with your cobalt equipped, then a screen of your WAR with the same cobalt equipped?

Will give WAR props on hate control over damage dealing. But the strain on the WHMs are certainly noticeable. Also I noticed all the buffs that war did prior to a tp move, tbh , that seems a bit harder to orgistrate over doing PLD moves.

You can't be serious... PLD has much more to it when it comes to skill orchestration and I highly doubt even the WARs are going to argue with that.

And to clear up some trollers mis informing, I am NOT one sided on this issue, I do think war is a valuable tank, in its proper enviorment. I however do not belive WAR is the best tank and PLD is useless. Best I can fiugre out is people are trolling or they are trying to convice other and possable SE that PLD is still broke in order to possably OP PLD. Best advice I could give SE is , Rather then having 3 or 4 hate moves just combine the amount of hate of all moves into one. Makes action managment alot easier but other then that I think PLD is perfectly fine and competes very well with war on all fronts of tanking.

Nobody here is trying to OP PLD. There is currently a legitimate problem with PLD being able to perform on an ideal level. First of all, defense is near useless. At the moment, greater HP is better than higher DEF. Secondly, PLD has almost no difference in MDEF compared to WAR. PLD brings less damage to the table, and can't AoE damage.

PLD does NOT compete with WAR on all fronts of tanking. I feel a lot of WAR's strengths are lost on single targets, but it still has the greater HP to survive attacks that DEF does not help PLD with. Which is almost all attacks. Is PLD capable of tanking multiple targets? Of course it is. But that does NOT mean that WAR isn't currently better for that job.

Also, you want all hate from all abilities condensed into one ability? Are you stupid?

I did notice somone mention "Its not the question if PLD can replace WAR but can PLD replace a WHM to allow space in the PT for more DD?" Answer is, in some fights, yes. With a good healer and PLD who knows the class, you can have one healer in the DH oger fight, Ifrit, Princess fight, pretty much ALL the HNM fights and any normal party grind. A well equiped and decently knowledged PLD can solo tank 10-15 lvl 50-57 mobs with pretty much no heals aside from blowover from AOE heals or Regen.

sorry for the long message.

50-57 is a huge gap, and the difficulty difference in that gap is fairly large. I can solo level 59 Diremites with relative ease. I may be able to take two of them. Three? Unlikely.

A two level difference from your max, but I would love to see some video proof of you solo tanking 10-15 level 57 mobs.

[Aceofspades]

dang, wish now i frapsed all those 40-50 PLs >< lvl 57 mobs in natalan anywhere from 10-15 of em, and thats before pld lmfao, realy dude, I shouldnt even respond to you, you dont seem near my level yet you talk like you are better then me. At least I give people benifit of a doubt when it comes to their actual skill level but then again your little picture up there should been a dead give away. Owell.

[Aceofspades]

"Nobody here is trying to OP PLD. There is currently a legitimate problem with PLD being able to perform on an ideal level. First of all, defense is near useless. At the moment, greater HP is better than higher DEF. Secondly, PLD has almost no difference in MDEF compared to WAR. PLD brings less damage to the table, and can't AoE damage"

REALY!!?? LMFAO omfg , dude that is the most retarded thing I have ever read on this forum. DEF is useless huh? wonder why then , when taking physical attacks from boss mobs, protect, def food, and def on gear any class makes the damage taken go down? If thats the case , hell no one would care about a Tank, we would all go in as BLM or WHM or MNK and destroy everthing, Their is a reason WHMs get hit for more by physical attacks then another Job with more DEF.... just stop posting , that was like the dumbest thing i have ever read. OH and there is no MAGICAL DEF, dont get me wrong , would be nice, but it dosent exist, just resist and evasion. In wich case no job has higher of any of that without buffs or materia/ gear . not like it would matter, in every fight i have ever parsed physical damage ALWAYS took top on the damage the boss did the most damage with, and yes, the more def i stacked the lower that number got.

[Arcell]

"Nobody here is trying to OP PLD. There is currently a legitimate problem with PLD being able to perform on an ideal level. First of all, defense is near useless. At the moment, greater HP is better than higher DEF. Secondly, PLD has almost no difference in MDEF compared to WAR. PLD brings less damage to the table, and can't AoE damage"

REALY!!?? LMFAO omfg , dude that is the most retarded thing I have ever read on this forum. DEF is useless huh? wonder why then , when taking physical attacks from boss mobs, protect, def food, and def on gear any class makes the damage taken go down? If thats the case , hell no one would care about a Tank, we would all go in as BLM or WHM or MNK and destroy everthing, Their is a reason WHMs get hit for more by physical attacks then another Job with more DEF.... just stop posting , that was like the dumbest thing i have ever read. OH and there is no MAGICAL DEF, dont get me wrong , would be nice, but it dosent exist, just resist and evasion. In wich case no job has higher of any of that without buffs or materia/ gear . not like it would matter, in every fight i have ever parsed physical damage ALWAYS took top on the damage the boss did the most damage with, and yes, the more def i stacked the lower that number got.

Defense IS mostly useless. Proof:

http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html

Sorry to say, HP is king. That's why you don't take a mage or DD as a tank. PLD and WAR especially has more HP. Not to mention tank has healers paying attention to their health specifically all the time.

Also on your test with a WAR not being able to take back hate, I call bullshit. With Antagonize and Sentinel, ALL actions generate more hate. Not to mention their primary hate generation combo only has a 30 second cooldown. Add onto that they can also use Flash, Provoke and Rampart, they have mostly all the same tools as PLD. And then consider Vengeance and Collusion. WAR can steal hate off of a rival tanking PLD's combo. That WAR had no idea what they were doing if they can't keep hate over a PLD.

[Evaddaragon]

Defense IS mostly useless. Proof:

http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html

Sorry to say, HP is king. That's why you don't take a mage or DD as a tank. PLD and WAR especially has more HP. Not to mention tank has healers paying attention to their health specifically all the time.

Also on your test with a WAR not being able to take back hate, I call bullshit. With Antagonize and Sentinel, ALL actions generate more hate. Not to mention their primary hate generation combo only has a 30 second cooldown. Add onto that they can also use Flash, Provoke and Rampart, they have mostly all the same tools as PLD. And then consider Vengeance and Collusion. WAR can steal hate off of a rival tanking PLD's combo. That WAR had no idea what they were doing if they can't keep hate over a PLD.

Don't bother answering to Ace, Arcell. I think everyboby at least agrees on that.


Just a side-note, though : The argument about WAR having its main enmity building combo on a 30 second recast timer is moot. PLD's main one is on a... TEN second recast. Plus it has Phalanx + Spirits Within every minute. WAR doesn't have better accuracy (accuracy gear not taken into account) than PLD and now that PLD can combine Outmaneuver with Divine Veil for faster MP and TP regeneration, you can pretty much readily spam Fast Blade + Flat Blade almost as soon as it is available.

Doesn't change the fact, however, that HP is indeed king of tanking stats right now. Even if defense suddenly got better, WAR doesn't have a lot less defense than PLD. What would change things is further improve block mitigation. Make it possible to block magic attacks, and negate damage completely when you block. If Block > Parry, then there already would be quite a difference.

[Takinagi]

lol this guy...

[Nanamix]

Buff PLD's HP. Nuff said.

[Skies]

Buff PLD's HP. Nuff said.

That would, sadly, run counter to it's design. Paladin is being designed as a mitigation-based tank. Regardless of wether or not SE is failing at doing this, i'd REALLY be happy if people's suggestions kept in line with what they've said was the design style of the job.