Paladin Updates

[Alerith]

Hate to double post but you say it all here. Agree almost 100%. I used PLD some last night and can say now that it's definitely better than GLA (which it was not before). With the SW change and DV change I feel like I'm helping the party much more than before. I did some Ifrit runs and only lost hate once to my WAR friend because I had apparently been lazy on voke/flash.

Before DV was like a funny joke ability that you press when you're safe to not die from ability lock (you know, like outmaneuver), now you spam it whenever it's up (along with outmaneuver!)

Hearing over vent "what's this divine regen thing?" was kinda nice too.

On a side-note for the GLA vs PLD aspect (hasn't been mentioned in a while) I actually did notice it seems as though the class vs job intention is intact here. I was soloing the Zan'rak coffer mob and had a very rough time on PLD, whereas GLA seems much safer.

All-in-all I say good progress, and I'm with you on the fact that PLD can now tank. And I think most of us are getting it right here that they need to give us a reason for this lower HP otherwise WAR will remain the preferred tank (even though now PLD can) as it's a bit safer from the big magic attacks.

All PLD needs at this point is more HP and/or for Defense to be worth a damn, and some Magic Defense. Goring Blade and Spirit's Within serve as REASONABLE damage for a tank class, in my opinion.

But... why should we have only ONE tank ? So that we only use this one ? If WAR can't tank, while not being as good as DPS as DRG or MNK at close range, then it's WAR that won't be used.

While PLD is my favorite job, I also have a 50 WAR and I also love it. The way I see it, a lot of people seem to want PLD to blow WAR out of the water... then what's going to happen next ? People will complain that WAR is "useless".

I suppose giving PLD magic damage mitigation would indeed be nice... But even if that happens, people are still going to say "WAR has more HP and deals more damage". Then what's next ? Make PLD a DD/tank hybrid like WAR ?

Sometimes I feel as if what people really want is that PLD is a WAR that wields a sword and shield instead, and dresses in white instead of red.

It's people's current attitude that will guarantee that WAR gets the nerf bat, because right now a lot of people are sending SE this message : "You can't make PLD strong enough." So what will they answer ? "In that case, we'll lower WAR."

And it would be SO easy for them to nerf WAR, too. Remove the increased crit chance from Steel Cyclone when used in a combo and increase its recast time to 60 seconds. One simple move that would lower WAR's effectiveness as a tank by a LOT. No more HP regen, and a lot less enmity generated would make it so that, even if WAR would still have more HP to help avoid being one-shotted, it won't matter much if it has problem keeping hate... and so DDs would have to slow down for the WAR to keep hate, speed-runs would be harder... guess what happens next ?

I'd rather have TWO tanks that have different playstyles and simply require a different approach then having one that is "efficient" but supposedly always "outshined" by the other. But that's just me I suppose.

I, personally, would not be happy with PLD getting more DD potential. Because with more DD potential comes sacrifice in other areas to keep it balanced.

I play PLD for a strong defensive class, and I think it should perform as such.

Phobos is right that PLD should far outshine WAR in it's tanking, because they are two different types of tanks. (In theory. So far SE hasn't gotten the barance right.)

PLD should far excel against a single, hard hitting enemy. PLD should be far superior to WAR for this situation.
WAR should far excel against multiple, not-so-hard hitting enemies. WAR should be far superior to PLD for this situation.

Nobody is asking for ONE tank. We simply want these two classes to specialize in different forms of tanking, where one is always better than the other for certain situations.

[Phobos]

PLD should far excel against a single, hard hitting enemy. PLD should be far superior to WAR for this situation.
WAR should far excel against multiple, not-so-hard hitting enemies. WAR should be far superior to PLD for this situation.

This, I think, is a key point most people who suggest this fail to address. Most people give this BS argument that PLD should be single target tank and WAR multi-target tank. I think what you suggest actually works somewhat well, but I still say, PLD should be better at both maintaining enmity and taking less damage in ANY situation. In this situation, WAR would just be better because the damage taken would be small enough that it wouldn't matter. I think the key comes in that it's not needed for trash mobs, so the extra DD WAR provides becomes more of an asset than what PLD brings to the table.

Again, I think PLD should be better than WAR at tanking, but WAR should be capable of tanking. There should be no form of tanking that WAR is better at, its just in the trash mob situation, WAR's DD capabilities become more useful because taking less damage is less useful.

EDIT: Just to clarify here, this is where I feel the DoW's stand, and should stand.
BRD is a solid ranged DD that offers some party support options. It can calm down on DD and heal others if need be.
DRG is the glass cannon, and can shed enmity with some of its' abilities. Good DD that keeps itself alive through enmity control rather than defense.
MNK is the elemental and additional effect specialist. Good DD and can do some interesting stuff.
WAR is the defensive DD. Good DD and capable of taking some hits. If the PLD goes down the party isn't going to fail because this guy is here to save the day. Able to deal more damage but also concentrate on defensive skills when needed.
PLD is the tank. Good enmity generation and defensive measures, poor damage.

This is how things should be. Right now the problem is the balance between WAR and PLD.

EDIT 2:

Sometimes I feel as if what people really want is that PLD is a WAR that wields a sword and shield instead, and dresses in white instead of red.

It's people's current attitude that will guarantee that WAR gets the nerf bat, because right now a lot of people are sending SE this message : "You can't make PLD strong enough." So what will they answer ? "In that case, we'll lower WAR."

And it would be SO easy for them to nerf WAR, too. Remove the increased crit chance from Steel Cyclone when used in a combo and increase its recast time to 60 seconds. One simple move that would lower WAR's effectiveness as a tank by a LOT. No more HP regen, and a lot less enmity generated would make it so that, even if WAR would still have more HP to help avoid being one-shotted, it won't matter much if it has problem keeping hate... and so DDs would have to slow down for the WAR to keep hate, speed-runs would be harder... guess what happens next ?

I'd rather have TWO tanks that have different playstyles and simply require a different approach then having one that is "efficient" but supposedly always "outshined" by the other. But that's just me I suppose.

I don't think you get the point here. You say we want PLD to be WAR with a sword and shield, and that our complaining will just nerf WAR. The point is WAR should not be the primary tank. WAR is fine where it is for now, maybe in later stages it could get a nerf. Balance jobs against each other by buffing them, then perhaps nerf them based on content difficulty (though I don't see a problem with WAR right now myself).

At any rate, nobody is saying you can't make PLD strong enough. This update was just abilities, the true problem is the lack of traits. PLD had this promise of increased defense with decreased HP, but all we got was decreased HP. Any boost defense gives in the game's current state pales in comparison to WAR's HP boost.

You think we want a WAR that uses sword+shield - me personally, I want a sword and shield to offer better defenses than an unwieldy great-axe as was promised and expected. It seems more like WAR's want an axe wielding barbarian to have defense comparable to someone using a shield.

It's really unfair to have WAR superior in tanking when it's a viable DD. Again, it should be able to tank and I think its great there's two tank classes (even though the healer role is not shared across classes I'm willing to share this...) My point is just that WAR should never be better at PLD in the one role PLD has to offer. I have a WAR friend that prefers not to tank, and I think it's a viable role for WAR's to be the backup tank. If the PLD goes down they are likely 2 or 3 on the hate list and can get up to #1 using a couple of abilities - their HP and solid defense means they won't get ripped apart like the other DD's.

[Phobos]

wow, HP huh? its cool yall keep your HP, i will stick with my def/vit. as far as interuption gose on spell casting, thats where skill comes in, first off you shouldnt ever be down to 10% health, but if you are, the fastest way to buy yourself time is ageious boon and or devine veil (after hot patch) ageious boon negates any physical damage taken and rewards hp acording to damage deflected. shouldnt have to tell yall bout devine veil. in anyrate, I can see this argument going no where soo guess i will conclude to agree to disagree, and say easier is not automaticly better. knowing what to cast or use and when to do so takes skill, if you lack this , then sure, WAR is the tank i would recomend for you, but if you want a true tank, then i would suggest mastering PLD. that being said i thank you all who disagree with me, honestly i do, with anyluck all this hype will end up buffing PLD even further, just be ware, if SE dosent want to op the job by accedent the only other option is to nerf war. Just sayin

You don't seem to get it... Are you even playing the same game? Most things where having a tank actually matters use magical attacks. PLD cannot block these, and has absolutely no advantage over WAR. WAR, on the other hand, has more HP meaning the attack does less % to their HP and they have a greater chance to survive.

It's the fact that PLD has no magical damage mitigation that makes people still use WAR. I've said this before and I'll say it again:

PLD should be so much better than WAR at tanking that there isn't even a discussion about it.

[Evaddaragon]

PLD should be so much better than WAR at tanking that there isn't even a discussion about it.

But... why should we have only ONE tank ? So that we only use this one ? If WAR can't tank, while not being as good as DPS as DRG or MNK at close range, then it's WAR that won't be used.

While PLD is my favorite job, I also have a 50 WAR and I also love it. The way I see it, a lot of people seem to want PLD to blow WAR out of the water... then what's going to happen next ? People will complain that WAR is "useless".

I suppose giving PLD magic damage mitigation would indeed be nice... But even if that happens, people are still going to say "WAR has more HP and deals more damage". Then what's next ? Make PLD a DD/tank hybrid like WAR ?

Sometimes I feel as if what people really want is that PLD is a WAR that wields a sword and shield instead, and dresses in white instead of red.

It's people's current attitude that will guarantee that WAR gets the nerf bat, because right now a lot of people are sending SE this message : "You can't make PLD strong enough." So what will they answer ? "In that case, we'll lower WAR."

And it would be SO easy for them to nerf WAR, too. Remove the increased crit chance from Steel Cyclone when used in a combo and increase its recast time to 60 seconds. One simple move that would lower WAR's effectiveness as a tank by a LOT. No more HP regen, and a lot less enmity generated would make it so that, even if WAR would still have more HP to help avoid being one-shotted, it won't matter much if it has problem keeping hate... and so DDs would have to slow down for the WAR to keep hate, speed-runs would be harder... guess what happens next ?

I'd rather have TWO tanks that have different playstyles and simply require a different approach then having one that is "efficient" but supposedly always "outshined" by the other. But that's just me I suppose.

[Phobos]

But... why should we have only ONE tank ? So that we only use this one ? If WAR can't tank, while not being as good as DPS as DRG or MNK at close range, then it's WAR that won't be used.
...
I'd rather have TWO tanks that have different playstyles and simply require a different approach then having one that is "efficient" but supposedly always "outshined" by the other. But that's just me I suppose.

I agree, and I've said this in quite a few posts though I neglected to mention it in that last one. WAR should be capable of tanking, it just shouldn't be better than PLD in ANY aspect of tanking. WAR is a DD, and right now it's also a tank. PLD is a tank. This would be like if BRD could cure better than WHM and all the BRD were like "no we should be able to heal too". It should be something you CAN do, but you shouldn't be better than the job who's ONLY role is to do it.

I've never said I don't think WAR should be able to tank. I think it would be quite horrible for parties if they HAD to get a PLD to tank. WAR should be capable, but not the best. People should be compelled to invite a PLD, but not restricted to needing a PLD.

[Otaku]

Situation tanking and how I see it
1:a: Tanking mob(s) with phys atk and/or boss with phys "1 shot" = Gimme the PLD (greater blocking/dmg mitigation)
b: Tanking mob(s) with more mgc atk and/or boss with mgc "1 shot" = Gimme the WAR (both suck at mgc mitigation, higher HP wins)
2:a: Tanking when pt has 3+ melee DD's = Gimme the PLD (aoe rampart has no equal imo for hate generation)
b: Tanking when pt has 3+ ranged DD's = Gimme the PLD (both can hold hate but if range gets hit PLD can heal them and self and get it back faster)
3: Tanking multiple mobs = Both do about the same, WAR has Cyclone and PLD has aoe flash/wardrum

Now the reason WAR is a better tank atm......
1. If you're tanking on PLD and your blocks are on CD boss might "1 shot" you, no one wants that, gimme the WAR
2. There's alot of magic out there and w/o maybe a "Shell" job trait PLD is taking just as much dmg, gimme the WAR
3. PLD does crap dmg and content is about speed atm, gimme the WAR
4. PT's are running 2xWHM atm (smart if you ask me), so it's 2.5 WHM/PLD vs 4.5 DD/WAR, no need for more then two healers and PLD isn't quite a full healer so gimme the WAR

Could PLD > WAR? Only time will tell ><;;

[Rexes]

Imagine if they nerf warrior one of those days..

[Luhy]

A good way to tell if a job is too weak is to imagine it in PvP. PLD has no damage, cant cure with a bunch of people on them, has low HP, no damage mitigation aside from Sentinel and frontal attacks and has no reliable "get off me" abilities. It has no place and no purpose that other jobs can't achieve more efficiently. It needs to be important in some way.

[Alerith]

A good way to tell if a job is too weak is to imagine it in PvP. PLD has no damage, cant cure with a bunch of people on them, has low HP, no damage mitigation aside from Sentinel and frontal attacks and has no reliable "get off me" abilities. It has no place and no purpose that other jobs can't achieve more efficiently. It needs to be important in some way.

That's actually a horrible way to judge ANY job.

First of all, you've placed the PLD into a situation where it can't possibly win. NO job in that situation, with multiple people on them, is going to be able to survive something like that. Do you think your WAR is going to kill all the players with Steel Cyclone? Or a BLM is going to stop them all with Flare?

Also, PvP is an absolutely horrible way to judge a job's usefulness outside of PvP, and I'm going to use FFXI as a means of illustrating that:

In FFXI, PLD is one of the most unneeded and undesired jobs for most content. But it's one of the best PvP jobs you can use. Ninja, arguably, has far more utility than PLD in many cases, and a PLD can wipe the floor with a NIN in PvP. (No disrespect to the NIN job.)

Does the PLD's ability to shine in PvP make it more practical for PvE play? Absolutely not.

TL;DR: Your example is flawed.

Also:

Nobody ever denied that PLD get's his shit done as well...the fact is that WAR get's it done better in each and every single part of being a tank.

This a thousand times over.

I will defend PLD until the sky falls. (See what I did there?)

The fact remains that WAR does it better, but PLD is still capable of doing it.

[Luhy]

If SE wants to keep going down the subtle route, but actually wants PLD to be used, I suggest giving the WHM spell Regen or maybe Divine Veil the effect of Spell Interruption rate-75%, converting damage blocked by Cover into MP so people will want to use it and either reducing the cast time or increasing the potency of Holy Succor.

I feel strongly about Cover converting damage into MP. It has always been a poor ability. Normally, by the time you select a target for it, you could have done other things to get hate back. This allows PLD to turn into a pseudo-healer during things like Morbol speed run and lets them take damage for MNKs while curing them for hate and regaining MP. It gives them a number of purposes and would even make PLD fun in PvP.