1.21a Paladin Ability Changes

[Phobos]

Basically if you bring a warrior in, you're guaranteed to have to have 2 WHM just because of how much they get hit.

If you have PLD now, maybe they will only need 1 healer

As has been stated in other threads, this is not the case. The second healer is to make things easier and safer in general. It's a safety net because it adds 2 more raises, and it's needed in fights where everyone is taking damage.

[Sanctus]

As has been stated in other threads, this is not the case. The second healer is to make things easier and safer in general. It's a safety net because it adds 2 more raises, and it's needed in fights where everyone is taking damage.

Do you ever think outside the box and realize you can change jobs inside dungeons? There are definitely fights where a pld and only 1 whm would be successful. The added dps will increase the kill speed while the pld can act as the tank/2nd whm. don't forget their cure spell also heals them for 50% of what they healed the party member for. If someone pulled aggro or got hit by something, the pld can cure them for 1100 and also heal himself for 550. The whm can focus on the tank and the rest of the party.

It frees everything up, you don't need an absolutely dedicated whm on the tank with a paladin in the group.

As someone who has been playing BLM a lot lately, I would like a PLD tank in fights like Chimera and the Ant Princess. Flash is wonderful for when the adds swarm, makes a BLMs life easier and able to hit all the adds

[Orophen]

Do you ever think outside the box and realize you can change jobs inside dungeons? There are definitely fights where a pld and only 1 whm would be successful. The added dps will increase the kill speed while the pld can act as the tank/2nd whm. don't forget their cure spell also heals them for 50% of what they healed the party member for. If someone pulled aggro or got hit by something, the pld can cure them for 1100 and also heal himself for 550. The whm can focus on the tank and the rest of the party.

It frees everything up, you don't need an absolutely dedicated whm on the tank with a paladin in the group.

As someone who has been playing BLM a lot lately, I would like a PLD tank in fights like Chimera and the Ant Princess. Flash is wonderful for when the adds swarm, makes a BLMs life easier and able to hit all the adds

You should check out the other earlier and longer thread about this. This argument has already been brought up there, discussed, and discredited by people who have experience with both jobs. I'm going to say up front that the people that actually discussed this have more experience than I do in tanking these instances. But I do have level 50 MRD and GLA and I have both PLD and WAR unlocked so I can follow the discussion and understand what's going on here.

What is being said by others is that PLD is not a replacement for a WHM. Parties with 2 WHMS don't need 2 WHMS because WAR is an mp sponge. They do it because it's safer and allows 2 raises instead of one. In both cases, you still have a WHM focusing on the tank and another focusing on the rest of the party. This is because PLD is more likely to be one shotted by boss abilities, so still needs attention.

Yes 1 WHM + 1 PLD + 1 extra DD is viable. But parties can and have already completed content just fine with 1 WAR + 1 WHM + 1 extra DD without any trouble because WAR has enough survivability and their DPS is just that much better than PLD. Things can be killed more quickly before it actually becomes an issue.

The gist of the argument is that on anything that matters, PLDs heals didn't make up for how dangerous a one shot ability from a boss is because they take time to cast and can be interrupted, and with their HP so low after a one-shot move, they are more likely to die, heals or not. WAR's hp makes a huge difference in survivability against abilities like these. Plus WAR has enmity tools that are just as good as, and some argue are better than, PLDs at the moment. That doesn't take away from the fact that you can tank as PLD. Of course you can. It's just easier and safer to tank as a WAR at the moment. At least before the changes. We'll have to see if that's changed now. But WAR's enmity tools and HP doesn't make it seem likely to me.

Here's the original thread if you want to check it out: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...aladin-Updates

[Sanctus]

You should check out the other earlier and longer thread about this. This argument has already been brought up there, discussed, and discredited by people who have experience with both jobs. I'm going to say up front that the people that actually discussed this have more experience than I do in tanking these instances. But I do have level 50 MRD and GLA and I have both PLD and WAR unlocked so I can follow the discussion and understand what's going on here.

What is being said by others is that PLD is not a replacement for a WHM. Parties with 2 WHMS don't need 2 WHMS because WAR is an mp sponge. They do it because it's safer and allows 2 raises instead of one. In both cases, you still have a WHM focusing on the tank and another focusing on the rest of the party. This is because PLD is more likely to be one shotted by boss abilities, so still needs attention.

Yes 1 WHM + 1 PLD + 1 extra DD is viable. But parties can and have already completed content just fine with 1 WAR + 1 WHM + 1 extra DD without any trouble because WAR has enough survivability and their DPS is just that much better than PLD. Things can be killed more quickly before it actually becomes an issue.

The gist of the argument is that on anything that matters, PLDs heals didn't make up for how dangerous a one shot ability from a boss is because they take time to cast and can be interrupted, and with their HP so low after a one-shot move, they are more likely to die, heals or not. WAR's hp makes a huge difference in survivability against abilities like these. Plus WAR has enmity tools that are just as good as, and some argue are better than, PLDs at the moment. That doesn't take away from the fact that you can tank as PLD. Of course you can. It's just easier and safer to tank as a WAR at the moment. At least before the changes. We'll have to see if that's changed now. But WAR's enmity tools and HP doesn't make it seem likely to me.

Here's the original thread if you want to check it out: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...aladin-Updates

Please read the thread title. That is great about that discussion, but this is about PLD after the changes have been made. I don't think many parties have attempted a PLD tank with the new changes that went live this morning...

If they prove to be fail changes then I will admit I'm wrong, but with the new damage reduction, stacked HoTs, and more damage output PLD got, they are a viable tank and backup healer if they have a bard.

If your pt is better equipped to succeed, you don't need 4 whm raises and a bard raise

[Orophen]

Please read the thread title. That is great about that discussion, but this is about PLD after the changes have been made. I don't think many parties have attempted a PLD tank with the new changes that went live this morning...

If they prove to be fail changes then I will admit I'm wrong, but with the new damage reduction, stacked HoTs, and more damage output PLD got, they are a viable tank and backup healer if they have a bard.

If your pt is better equipped to succeed, you don't need 4 whm raises and a bard raise

Don't worry. I understand what the thread is about. It's not that hard to figure out. And I'm NOT attacking you over this, but you're pointing out that 1 WHM + 1 PLD is thinking out of the box. It's not. It's already been done. And so has 1 WHM + 1 WAR. Phobos was alluding to the fact that the 2 WHM thing isn't the issue that you think it is. Reading the other discussion would've explained that.

PLD has always been a viable tank. That was never the issue. WAR was just better and people don't think it should be that way. My point is that I don't think the changes are enough to change that. With no HP increase and no defense/enmity buff over WAR, I'm skeptical. A lot of people were also complaining about PLD needing a BRD in order to not run out of MP so I don't think that's the answer either. But it's not as if I've decided that PLD is crap already. I'm not even saying you're wrong yet. I just have an opinion about it and I'm also waiting to see what the changes will bring to the table.

[Phobos]

Please read the thread title. That is great about that discussion, but this is about PLD after the changes have been made. I don't think many parties have attempted a PLD tank with the new changes that went live this morning...

If they prove to be fail changes then I will admit I'm wrong, but with the new damage reduction, stacked HoTs, and more damage output PLD got, they are a viable tank and backup healer if they have a bard.

If your pt is better equipped to succeed, you don't need 4 whm raises and a bard raise

You say something about damage reduction, yet there is actually no damage reduction on anything that matters (magic damage). This, in my opinion, is the problem. Because PLD and WAR take the same damage from magical attacks, and WAR has more HP, it will remain the viable tank.

Some people try to claim WAR can hold hate better but I vehemently disagree. Especially with this update, I'll personally have no issues on PLD (this was the case before the update as I know how to keep up with enmity abilities). This update is amazing, I personally just want to highlight the fact that it has not actually fixed much. Until our damage reduction overtakes our HP penalty, we will not be on top. PLD is definitely better than GLA now, which is a key step in the right direction.

I'm sorry if I come off as attacking you or anything, I just want to see PLD surpass WAR in every aspect of tanking as it should. A DD taking hate should be a bad thing, not a good thing. I don't want to see WAR not be able to tank, though... I just want to see PLD be better than WAR at what it's true purpose is. PLD should be the supreme tank. Even if as some people are suggesting PLD is now comparable to WAR or slightly better, that's not good enough. PLD should be so much better than WAR at tanking that anyone who brings up the suggestion (of WAR tanking being better than PLD tanking) gets laughed at because of how ridiculous it is. I mean seriously... it's the main purpose of the job! Even GLA should beat WAR at tanking! WAR should be able to tank, but PLD should be tank king.

[Lux_Rayna]

Basically PLD just needs a def boost...or rather SE needs to fix the defense formula. I also wonder if def requires an effective combination of def and VIT, like STR and attack. I know VIT by itself is pretty useless but combined with def I wonder if it has any increased merits as far as damage reduction goes.

I mean seriously SE had to have tested PLD, so I feel like there's something the community hasn't figured out.

[Gradd]

Basically PLD just needs a def boost...or rather SE needs to fix the defense formula. I also wonder if def requires an effective combination of def and VIT, like STR and attack. I know VIT by itself is pretty useless but combined with def I wonder if it has any increased merits as far as damage reduction goes.

I mean seriously SE had to have tested PLD, so I feel like there's something the community hasn't figured out.

The issue isnt how much Damage Paladin Takes, or if Paladin can hold hate.

Its the same stupid argument in XI and Paladin has the same exact issue in both games. Paladin is very much capable of holding hate and mitigating Damage.

But the main issue is, whats the point of bringing a Paladin if another job can hold its place while dealing damage?

The day SE understands and learns how to properly build an actual tank job is the day pigs fly. Because they have been failing at it for years.

[Kaishen]

PLD should be so much better than WAR at tanking that anyone who brings up the suggestion (of WAR tanking being better than PLD tanking) gets laughed at because of how ridiculous it is. I mean seriously... it's the main purpose of the job! Even GLA should beat WAR at tanking! WAR should be able to tank, but PLD should be tank king.

I disagree. I believe that both jobs should be approximately equal as far as tanking abilities - maybe one better than the other for some situations, or vice versa - but not one clearly superior to the other in all situations. Tanking is the main purpose of WAR in this game too. It just happens to also be able to deal good damage.

Do you think there should be one DD job that is clearly the best DD job in all situations? If not, why should that apply to tanks?

We'll all be better off if there is more variety available in filling a particular role within a party.

[NoctisUmbra]

I can see PLD, even as it is now, being the preferred tank in straight tank and spank fights that involve melee-range DDs. Divine Veil becomes a game changer now with the stacking regen, which can go a long way to alleviate the extra damage melee DD take.

Problem is, not a lot of fights are done with melee-range DDs right now. Even though many of them have become viable, the community has become so accustomed to the safety range-DPS brings that they continue preferring it.