Let's Talk Tanks

[Kabooa]

This is the result of a tangent in another thread - Rather than detract from that further, we're cluttering the forum some more.

This is mostly for-fun discussion. It is not about fitting things better into the meta, it does not deal with current balance. Assumptions will be made here regarding a theoretical state of the game.

So, lets talk. Starting where we left off

But if we do expand it a bit, moving beyond just a couple simple compromises, I wouldn't have all tanks be a broad modular GCD system. In my mind, that seems most thematically appropriate to Dark Knight given the weapon of choice. A job focused around short term buff-granting GCD skills, building up momentum ("Blood") and capping off a modular combo with a Blood weaponskill.

In this scenario, the Tank role would be significantly squishier when maximizing their damage output. The Dark Knight gains their higher durability through GCD selection in modular combos, creating a natural risk/reward system. Can you afford to tax your healer more, or do you turtle? Will you have everything in place before the buster comes in, or would you blow an important cooldown? (This variant would likely only have Living Dead, Abyssal Drain, and Blackest Night on the Defensive on-demand ability side of things.)

This is specifically regarding a "Nerfing" of tanks on a baseline scale in order to allow them to, through their decisions during an encounter, specialize in either course.

Currently tanks enjoy an absurd passive EHP bonus. Along with near a 50% advantage on HP, they also enjoy passive mitigation in the realm of 30-40% depending on who's getting hit by what. At the extreme ends, this is about a 210% - 260% EHP advantage.

Now obviously, this is a 'no duh'. Tanks should be durable. However, there have been more than a few bouts of feedback that tanks feel like they lack agency and impact. One cannot help but wonder if that is because that at a baseline, so much has passively been thrown into tanks.

By contrast, tanks currently do not have too much room for optimization or choice in their gameplay approach. Whether or not one enjoys that is up to an individual. (I tend to prefer optimism - we have a solid launching point for tanks moving forward through this re-establishment of a baseline).

The above quote is specifically about Dark Knights, and much of this initial post will be about Dark Knights, however, this thread is not specifically about Dark Knights. Dark Knight.

So. Lets expand on the above.

I am personally not married to the 1-combo design of Dark Knight, but the framework the current job has allows for some interesting theoretical additions.

For example - Darkside's effect magnifies as it is maintained, but its duration also more rapidly decreases, creating a natural progression and pressure on the Dark Knight to maintain, build, and then rapidly expend, becoming a mechanic to play around instead of fire and forget application.

But, frankly, we're not here for potentially realistic additions now or later. Lets BURN IT DOWN and start from the beginning. Lets aim for a significantly different gameplay loop and feel.

A few assumptions

1. Background changes are assumed. If it doesn't feel like it would work because X, Y, or Z, it's because they weren't considered. We're in the realm of imagination, lets use it.
2. The Tank stat 'budget' is reorganized from a passive baseline. Their stat budget greatly varies based on their decisions in combat.
3. Button Consolidation will be rampant.

However, I'm not going to yell a whole job concept here. Instead, I'm going to offer one part of it, specifically the one mentioned in the quote above.

So lets talk weaponskills.

The greatest waste of the combat system in this game has been the linear, restrictive nature of the weaponskills. While some jobs can certainly have this style (Basic branching combos, straight up 1-5 combos, so on), we have room for something a bit more free form.

The Dark Knight, for example, would utilize a modular combo system, not dissimilar from the Monk, but without the linear nature, through the use of three basic 'stances'.

High Posture - Attacks from high posture have higher base damage compared to others, though can be slower or have other costs associated with them.

Low Posture - Attacks from low posture are quicker, but strike with less ferocity..

Neutral posture - A balanced posture. Attacks are versatile and sweeping.

Unlike the monk, rather than advancing 'stances' in a 123 fashion, the Dark Knight maintains forward-and-back combo transition. Once a combo starts, it does not end until the Dark knight stops swinging, or they employ a Blood weaponskill.

Blood Weapon - Attacks utilizing Blood gain a bonus depending on the posture they are used from, as well as having significantly higher potency of effect and damage.

The method Dark Knight gains blood is open for debate, though in this masochist's preference, it would primarily be from landing attacks and taking damage.

"Okay, but how is it different?"

The biggest difference between Theoretical Dark Knight and Monk is that monk advances through stances in a linear fashion ("123"). The Dark Knight, however, begins their combo with any posture setting weaponskill. For sake of ease, the Dark Knight has the following 9 basic weaponskills.

1. High To High: A high attack that leaves the user in High Posture.
2. High to Neutral: A high attack that leaves the user in Neutral Posture
3. High to Low: A high attack that leaves the user in Low Posture.

[One can make assumptions what the other six basics are, but for the sake of text-walling, they'll be in this bumper.]

4. Neutral to High: A neutral attack that leaves the user in High Posture.
5. Neutral to Neutral: A neutral attack that leaves the user in Neutral Posture
6. Neutral to Low: A neutral Attack that leaves the user in Low Posture
7. Low to High: A Low attack that leaves the user in High Posture.
8. Low to Neutral: A Low attack that leaves the user in Neutral Posture
9. Low to Low: A Low Attack that leaves the user in Low Posture

In this manner, the Dark Knight 'enters' a combo and doesn't end it until the combo timer runs out, or they utilize a Blood Weaponskill.

Simple enough. But why have nine weaponskills across 3 postures?

Because each maneuver grants the Dark Knight a short but potent buff. Buffs that last for a few GCDs. The Dark Knight (and other tanks) are dumpstered from their pedestal of overstuffed passive stats to instead choose what they want running all the time, what they want running some of the time, and hoping they don't screw up their timing so badly that they get biffed into the wall, because other than a few emergency options, that's all you got.

Now obviously there's a significant lack of detail here. It's vague. Consider however, that what I've said here (9 skills over 3 postures and blood 'enders') can mostly, intuitively, fit in 4-6 action slots. (If we consider having Bloodspiller, Quietus, and one other Blood weaponskill). Buffs that last no longer than perhaps 2-3 GCDs, either through duration, or even only lasting for 3 attacks in total.

Key Point summary

1. What if Dark Knights were like monks?

2. 3 'stances', 9 basic actions divided among the 3 stances. 3 consolidated action buttons corresponding to what Stance the Dark Knight will end up in.

3. Blood Weaponskills are your strongest attacks but also effectively end your combo, removing your stance.

4. Tanks are reduced in passive stat bloat.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't have anything that would be both complete and concrete yet, but one thing that's been interesting to me so far is how much tanking can benefit from general changes, making the adjustments feel smooth and far from gimmick or arbitrary.

Effect-stacking, effect-curves, effect-by-potency, or revisions to how combos work--or even some crazier ideas like "crushing blows" (where attacks can inflict longer term detriments based on how much damage they dealt)--are all beneficial enough to be worth implementing for any given role, but just seem to go that extra mile for tanks.

:: Been working on my own combo system ideas lately, to similar results. (That's partly why I noticed the trend above; I'd started it at first with an eye primarily on SAM and DRG, but one of my three factors just offered a lot more on tanks.)
As usual, though, mine got just a bit over-complicated in my attempts to make room for anything and everything. I used Stance (where your last weaponskill, ability, or block/parry left your weapon and posture), Status (changes based on buffs or target debuffs), and Position (relative to the enemy). I should be able to toss samples up here soon. Probably going to start with PLD.

(Again, the funny thing was that without an enemy attacking you, each felt like it was only using about two-thirds its potential, which is why a tank will almost certainly end up the best poster job for my suggested changes.)

[Reynhart]

It reminds me of the Fencer job in Bravely Second, and its three stances.

Personally, I think you could cover the stance change attacks with oGCD (One for "next stance" and one for "previous stance", with a visual cue in your Job UI) that would actually give you a different visual stance and change the WS animations. Since each stance buff covers a few GCD, you would stance dance differently as you approach your ender (For example, "speed" stance for building Blood, with a sprinkle of "power" stance, then "power" stance + "critical" stance when you use your Blood skill or during party burst phase).

[shao32]

I preffer get HW DRK

[SaberMaxwell]

Haven't read it all yet, but is your Dark Knight inspired by Nioh at all? Low Stance Neutral and High Stance are it's niche in the Soulslike genre. Since this is a "burn it to the ground" type revision do you think a Ki Pulse type mechanic would be good too?

[Nedkel]

I would like to touch a war topic here, since its the job who is hurt the most in this expansion and left alone with its depth completely removed from him.

First and foremost war needs more depth but also some potency shifted from IR windows to non-IR phase.
Imo they should give us a GCD that will trigger after gauge usage, because it will be the only way to increase his damage outside the IR.
For each 50 gauge used warrior is given a stack which could be used to execute GCD that deals 450 potency to the main target and 300 potency to the everything around him, each use of this skill extends the duration of storms eye by 15 second. Warrior could store up to 2 stacks and those stacks has no duration.

It would make warrior gameplay a bit more interesting outside of IR, buff his damage a little and make storms eye less tedious to manage.

[Kabooa]

Haven't read it all yet, but is your Dark Knight inspired by Nioh at all? Low Stance Neutral and High Stance are it's niche in the Soulslike genre. Since this is a "burn it to the ground" type revision do you think a Ki Pulse type mechanic would be good too?

Not intentionally. I went with more Seigfried from older Soul Calibur titles, whose moveset revolved around neutral strikes, and then moving into different stances with no defined end.

The concept of Ki Pulse as a gauge control system seems like a system that would apply best to the unmentioned MP and Darkside facets of Dark Knight's kit.

As Blood could possibly generate from taking damage, during particularly harrowing sections of damage intake, blood capping would not only be likely, but rapid. If all Blood Skills applied "Blood Weapon" charges to restore MP when dealing damage, these charges could be stacked, and a 'ki pulse' like mechanic be based around an ability / trait that consumes these stacks instantly were one needing MP immediately.

[Kabooa]

It would make warrior gameplay a bit more interesting outside of IR, buff his damage a little and make storms eye less tedious to manage.

Speaking personally for the warrior, I feel it should be the tank with the most satisfying "crunch" when it swings that axe.

Consider dividing the weaponskills into the basic category (as we have them now) and then 'Slams' (Where we'd put things like Fell Cleave, Decimate, and others). The warrior would follow a basic style of building and spending, but instead of gauge enabling 'Slams', slams themselves are further empowered.

Beast Gauge is built through stages, though still maintaining the numerical build up.
Stage 1: 25
Stage 2: 50
Stage 3: 100

Each slam consumes one 'stage' and gains more power as the stage progresses. Using any 'Slam' at 68 gauge consumes 50 and grants the stage 2 bonus. Using at 38 consumes 25 and uses the Slam as its basic action.

Of course this does mean Onslaught and Upheaval likely move off the BG system, and rather than just being bog standard OGCDs, we'd want to do something with them. As a preliminary thought, having them be charge based abilities, but having Warrior be unique in the notion that the charges are all expended at once for greater magnitudes of effect could add some interesting facets.

For example, Onslaught has 3 charges, and is the basic effect at 1 charge, gains a large potency bonus for each additional charge, and at 3 charges, it strikes all enemies in the area.

[NyneSwordz]

I would like to touch a war topic here, since its the job who is hurt the most in this expansion and left alone with its depth completely removed from him.

First and foremost war needs more depth but also some potency shifted from IR windows to non-IR phase.
Imo they should give us a GCD that will trigger after gauge usage, because it will be the only way to increase his damage outside the IR.
For each 50 gauge used warrior is given a stack which could be used to execute GCD that deals 450 potency to the main target and 300 potency to the everything around him, each use of this skill extends the duration of storms eye by 15 second. Warrior could store up to 2 stacks and those stacks has no duration.

It would make warrior gameplay a bit more interesting outside of IR, buff his damage a little and make storms eye less tedious to manage.

It think they tried to move damage outside of ir with infuriate and inner chaos. I really don't like it though, because its way too bursty and doesnt do anything to alleviate how grossly uneven wars deal damage.

I also don't like it thematically as its a powerful attack thats not useable within ir, which is supposed to be our burst window.

I would rather they just straight get rid of inner chaos and buff fell cleave damage.

[NyneSwordz]

I would like to touch a war topic here, since its the job who is hurt the most in this expansion and left alone with its depth completely removed from him.

First and foremost war needs more depth but also some potency shifted from IR windows to non-IR phase.
Imo they should give us a GCD that will trigger after gauge usage, because it will be the only way to increase his damage outside the IR.
For each 50 gauge used warrior is given a stack which could be used to execute GCD that deals 450 potency to the main target and 300 potency to the everything around him, each use of this skill extends the duration of storms eye by 15 second. Warrior could store up to 2 stacks and those stacks has no duration.

It would make warrior gameplay a bit more interesting outside of IR, buff his damage a little and make storms eye less tedious to manage.

What you described is sorta how warrior used to work. Kinda. I like your idea tho.