No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

[HyoMinPark]

If yoy read my original message and not just my answer to firstnamelastname you'll see that i refer to low level dungeons

Even so, BRD has good AOE even in the lower levels—they get Quick Nock at level 18. The only jobs that don’t have AOE prior to level ~30 are DRG (Doom Spike is level 40) and NIN (Death Blossom is level 38, but they do get Katon every 20 seconds at level 35). Most others have AOE at low levels, and a lot of the newer jobs (RDM/SAM/DNC) AOE is really powerful at the lower levels. If you aren’t AOEing, then you are hurting your party. It doesn’t matter if it’s “boring”—you’re hurting your team. And you will always kill things faster and do more damage when you’re doing AOE at 3+ targets (2+ for some jobs, like DNC and BRD) than your 1-2-3 combo on one.

[Shurrikhan]

Even so, BRD has good AOE even in the lower levels—they get Quick Nock at level 18. The only jobs that don’t have AOE prior to level ~30 are DRG (Doom Spike is level 40) and NIN (Death Blossom is level 38, but they do get Katon every 20 seconds at level 35). Most others have AOE at low levels, and a lot of the newer jobs (RDM/SAM/DNC) AOE is really powerful at the lower levels. If you aren’t AOEing, then you are hurting your party. It doesn’t matter if it’s “boring”—you’re hurting your team. And you will always kill things faster and do more damage when you’re doing AOE at 3+ targets (2+ for some jobs, like DNC and BRD) than your 1-2-3 combo on one.

MNK manages an AoE (only every third GCD) of 110 potency (effectively 121) and SAM 100 potency (effectively 110) as early as level 26, but SAM's AoE would require 4 targets to surpass single-target combat at that level. They sadly fall far behind their Ranged analogs. At level 30, for instance, MCH will be dealing a relative 216 ppgcd by spamming a single skill.

On the general topic:

The sad thing is it's still better to AoE, even for a job with such a seemingly wasteful AoE because the advantage in killing a single target early is scarcely worth the faint disadvantage to killing all targets later with how little damage any individual enemy deals.

Back in early ARR, there were indeed other strategies that could be optimal over pulling everything and simply mowing them down with AoE spams. Sleeps, tactical application of DoTs, and focus targets all played into the mix. But that's just not the case today.

If one wishes to have back those older options, it should come as request for the gameplay by which to allow for those things again, rather than simply excusing poor performance.

[Superlooser]

Even so, BRD has good AOE even in the lower levels—they get Quick Nock at level 18. The only jobs that don’t have AOE prior to level ~30 are DRG (Doom Spike is level 40) and NIN (Death Blossom is level 38, but they do get Katon every 20 seconds at level 35). Most others have AOE at low levels, and a lot of the newer jobs (RDM/SAM/DNC) AOE is really powerful at the lower levels. If you aren’t AOEing, then you are hurting your party. It doesn’t matter if it’s “boring”—you’re hurting your team. And you will always kill things faster and do more damage when you’re doing AOE at 3+ targets (2+ for some jobs, like DNC and BRD) than your 1-2-3 combo on one.

With all respect, i fully disagree. Bard have aoe but without applying dot on all targets its not optimized and ninja waste a lot of dps if when using doton the tank pull the mobs away from it. By the way, if you are playing a boring gameplay just to do dungeons faster, it means to me you Don't have fun at all in playing dungeons so you should maybe stop doing dungeons, at least low level ones. Considering your player card you Don't need xp anymore, so why playing just for speed if you Don't take fun ?

[FirstnameLastname]

With all respect, i fully disagree. Bard have aoe but without applying dot on all targets its not optimized and ninja waste a lot of dps if when using doton the tank pull the mobs away from it. By the way, if you are playing a boring gameplay just to do dungeons faster, it means to me you Don't have fun at all in playing dungeons so you should maybe stop doing dungeons, at least low level ones. Considering your player card you Don't need xp anymore, so why playing just for speed if you Don't take fun ?

Mate you sorta realized your thinking error there. Not everyone enjoys standing in a dungeon and looking at low pixelated walls for three hours at a time. Some people enjoy doing content fast, especially the boring ass low level - where your gameplay often times literally consists of 1-2-1-2-1-2-1 and so forth.

[HyoMinPark]

With all respect, i fully disagree. Bard have aoe but without applying dot on all targets its not optimized and ninja waste a lot of dps if when using doton the tank pull the mobs away from it. By the way, if you are playing a boring gameplay just to do dungeons faster, it means to me you Don't have fun at all in playing dungeons so you should maybe stop doing dungeons, at least low level ones. Considering your player card you Don't need xp anymore, so why playing just for speed if you Don't take fun ?

You do not, and have never, needed to DoT every mob in a pull when it comes to BRD. The suggested number of mobs to DoT ranges from 3 to 5 in most instances—because otherwise you’d be wasting GCDs DoTing and constantly refreshing said DoTs as opposed to actually AOEing and utilizing your procs. You upkeep DoTs on 3 or so mobs for procs, and then you AOE your heart out. You do not DoT all 10 mobs in a pack of 10. That is how you optimally AOE on BRD.

And I really hate to be the bearer of bad news to you, but I still have several jobs to level to 80 (as well as plenty of alts in various levels from ~30 to mid-70s). And sometimes I get thrown in a low level dungeon via Leveling Roulette. I’m not one to bail on my party because I get an undesired roulette draw, so I stay. With all due respect, you have no place to tell me what I find fun and what I don’t find fun. I like AOEing. I like seeing things melt. And I like things to be quick and efficient. I have done all the dungeons in this game countless times in my 4 years of playing on half a dozen different characters. Why would I stand around and spam 1-2-3 on one mob in a pack of 10 when I can AOE and watch them absolutely melt? Do you not know how satisfying it is to see that? It’s certainly not boring.

So, with all due respect, stop telling me what I find fun and what I don’t. It just makes you come off as incredibly presumptuous and rude.

[Stirix]

When it comes to pulls it is down to the tank to sort the pace, but NOT the pace they just want. One that fits in with the party, you should never pull so much the healer is overwhelmed, or so little that it slows the run down.

On the healers side it is down to them to let the tank know if it is too much for them so they know to pull less, or let them know they are ok to pull more.

On the dps side it is their job to do damage, if they want larger pulls then ask in chat n if the tank n healer r cool with it then yeah, but dps should not be pulling except if it has been agreed as ok by the party.

I used to ask the healer if they were good with big pulls, but 99% of the time i either got no response, or people getting on my case telling me to just get on with it. So now instead what i do is check the healers gear upon first getting into the dungeon and base my initial pulls off that then ajust if needed, below i have listed a few examples.

1. 90% of expert roulettes when i check the healers are very well geared so i pull large, in others they are not so since they are fresh 80's still gearing to i start at half normal size see how it goes then pull larger next time if my health did not drop alot.

2. I was in a levelling dungeon a couple of days ago, i looked at the healers gear, some pieces 20 levels lower than the dungeon some level appropriate, so i looked at there class list card. They didn't have any 80's just a few classes at different stages of levelling. Since i could tell they were a new player from this i started small, did a couple of single packs, no issues. So i moved onto a double pack that came to 6 mobs, again no issues but my health dropped to about 2/3 of full during. So i decided that was the right spot since it sped up the dungeon without overwhelming the healer.

3. Another levelling dungeon, healer was not the best so i was taking it slowly with the pulls. One of the dps clearly did not like that and ninja pulled, i grabbed the mobs off him but it was more than the healer could manage and we wiped. After we rez i tell the dps that i am pulling based off the healers gear and not to pull more and cause wipes, which earns me a thank you from the healer while the ninja puller says nothing. So we carry on i'm pulling steady so as not to overwhelm the healer and this dps pulls again, i pull them off him, this time we manage but barely my health was pretty low by the end. We kicked that dps got a new one, carried on with steady pulls and finished no problem.

[Awha]

Way I see it the group sets the pace, if the group wants wall-to-wall pulls either leave or try, same goes for smaller pulls, medium pulls, no pulls, rp pulls, walking pulls, face pulls. If a divide is is brought up get that trigger finger ready and be the first to initiate a vote kick.

Normally when I am tanking or doing anything via DF if the group does something I do not find enjoyable I personally just leave.

[SturmChurro]

Way I see it the group sets the pace, if the group wants wall-to-wall pulls either leave or try, same goes for smaller pulls, medium pulls, no pulls, rp pulls, walking pulls, face pulls. If a divide is is brought up get that trigger finger ready and be the first to initiate a vote kick.

Normally when I am tanking or doing anything via DF if the group does something I do not find enjoyable I personally just leave.

I don't agree with that. You shouldn't have to leave and take a 30 minute penalty. They shouldn't be doing stupid things like RP pulls, walking pulls, they should be kicked. They are in Duty Finder something like that should be for a premade. As for smaller pulls, and medium pulls, why would you even leave? The 30 minute timer plus a new queue will be longer than just putting up with it. Either get kicked or just roll your eyes, at least as a dps. Leaving as a dps means 30 minutes plus another 10-20 for queue time, PLUS another 20 for the dungeon. Not worth it AT ALL.

[Saranade]

The speed of the dungeon is indeed a precedent set by the tank. However, if you have DPS & healers in your group who care geared well enough to be able to handle big pulls you are simply not playing your role correctly. I have put up with this type of tank before (who disregards everyone else) but I also have been known to just simply take the penalty and leave. Just sayin, you have a very unpopular opinion.

[AngelCheese77]

I don't ... understand why people can't communicate.

Tanks should ask is big or smalls pulls ok.
Healers should speak up if something is too much.
DPS should speak up if they don't have AoEs (many people don't know other classes skills).

It's not that hard! If you're on PS4, take some time beforehand and make a macro or something.

If no one speaks up, and it's a pace you don't like, then deal with it or leave. /shrug

If you don't communicate, no one will know. Simple as that.