No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

[Shurrikhan]

Big yes to these too. I've actually started sprinting myself a while back when I tank or heal. I think you were one of the ones that opened my eyes to the effectiveness and helped me to start giving a damn. I could be wrong. But I REALLY have a problem with tanks popping EVERY freakin cooldown before they even start getting hit! My heart almost stops! Like what the hell are we going to do for the rest of the pull????

Might have been. I tend to throw out the reminder that "Sprint is mitigation, especially if you take off immediately after tagging the mobs once (which is usually plenty), and its duration is doubled if you use it *before* entering combat" an awful lot, once I see someone forgetting to sprint. I think I've managed to retrain maybe a dozen or so tanks over the last year or so?

[VictorTheed]

Hi my name is Rick Speegull from Paulmart heating and cooling, I understand u called about a heated situation, is that correct sir?

Sir there is no need to call my wife a Jezebel whore, I don't have a wife to begin with, what woman in her right mind would marry a guy named Rick Speegull, trust me I've tried no woman hates herself that much but if u find the one that does give her my Paulmart contact info.

Oh that's perfectly fine sir, I may be a heating and cooling repairman but at Paulmart the customer is always right sir, so u want a pool installed, u want a big pool or small pool?

[Lambdafish]

Sometimes as a healer it's more like... Tank doesn't use CDs, stands in aoes, doesn't stop tank busters, all that stuff. Then it's stuff like 'WTF are you doing healer'. In my experience you have to be lucky for the tank to accept it as their fault when it actually is their fault.

While it's somewhat of an unspoken code that the tank controls the pace of the run, I don't think its a good mentality for them to rally behind because it can feed certain people's egos too much. And I think this can help nurture the 'If ya cant keep up, you're straight outta luck' mindset.

It's not something that is rallied behind, it's a matter of fact inherent in the game design. The tank pulls, therefore the tank can choose to pull one pack or multiple. Having said that, just because a tank pulls large packs doesn't mean that the tank is good. Bad players exist and are a completely separate argument from the "big pulls should be the standard" argument. You should be watching the tank, you should know when they are playing badly, and if they call you out, call them out back, it's not the tank you need to convince, its the other DPS who share the vote kick with you.

FYI, bad players rarely accept fault in DF, whether they are tanks, DPS, or healers.

[Hash_Browns]

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This is the first time I've ever heard a WHM complain about having MP issues, but looking at your stuff I can see a few issues that you have, such as NOT using Presence of Mind during a fight, or not using Assize as much as you could.

This is going on the one E4 fight, of course, so I don't know how it compares to everything else you do - but during said fight you didn't use Presence of Mind, missed 5 possible Assizes. You also missed out on all Temperance mitigation, Divine Benison mitigation, and Asylum healing & healing increase - meaning they were never cast.

Looking at it, it seems you have trouble using the tools that you have available to yourself.

I don't play WHM at all on any serious level, but I can tell you that you need to learn those tools as they prevent you from needing to expend extra oGCD skills. The tank isn't the only person who should be mitigating damage, and you pressing your shield to them, or using Asylum/Temperance is going to save you mroe then a few oGCDs in the long run.

This is also the first time I've heard a healer complain about tank invulns. (outside of Living Dead, which is a major resource dump.)

[Rilifane]

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I'm genuinly curious where and how these situations happen.
It sounds to me like this is a regular occurence for you but escpecially as a WHM you should neither run out of MP nor out of tools to heal a tank back up.

Also Cure II (or 700 potency heals in general) should hit for 24-25k with your gear, escpecially with a 460 weapon. My healers are still in 450 aswell and it definitely heals for more. Substats don't make a different of 4k+.
Also, you don't have 2,5sec casts with your gear, it's probably somewhere between 2,35-2,38.
20k every 2,5sek vs 24k every 2,38sec is already a huge difference if you really have to resort to Cure II spam.

If you find yourself out of MP AND out of tools when the tank uses Bolide/ Living Dead, there are two most likely scenarios:
1. the tank pulled too much for the low party dps and the pull took so long you ran out of options and have to Cure II spam until things come off cd again, Bolide/ Living Dead is sort of a last resort here
2. you frontloaded too much or panicked and ran out of options

The former often happens during the first pull. Mobs usually melt decently fast in average groups, so most tanks just assume dps will be decent enough for wall to wall and go ahead with it.
The latter is a matter of your playstyle and learning to use your full toolkit effectively. Keeping calm if shit hits the fan is one of the healer's responsibilities and something you can learn. Spreading cds evenly without letting them sit unused is also something that can be learned.
Running out of options should only ever happen towards the end of a pull and with tanks usually using immunity early/ mid-pull you definitely shouldn't be out of options by then.
IF they do it towards the end of a pull it's likely because stuff took longer than expected to kill and they're out of options aswell, so immunity is their last resort until something else is off cd again.

For every average big pull you usually have two Assizes and one LD with Thin Air up every other pull. This is a buckload of free MP. I often push LD more out of habit than neccessity because I rarely actually need it in wall to wall pulls, including the first AA pull where you start with zero lilies.

I honestly can't think of a reason why your scenario would be so common but I'd like to hear it. Maybe there's something I can help with so tanks using immunity benefits you instead of stressing you out.

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You are really doing your best here to make it sound like you're always getting raged at no matter what you do but I'm calling bullshit here.
Getting raged at for doing everything right?
Come on.
Enough of the pity party.
If you really get this much negative feedback, maybe the problem doesn't actually lie with all the bad people out there who are never satisfied no matter what you do and rage at you for absolutely no reason.

[AuraAstra]

This is the first time I've ever heard a WHM complain about having MP issues, but looking at your stuff I can see a few issues that you have, such as NOT using Presence of Mind during a fight, or not using Assize as much as you could.

This is going on the one E4 fight, of course, so I don't know how it compares to everything else you do - but during said fight you didn't use Presence of Mind, missed 5 possible Assizes. You also missed out on all Temperance mitigation, Divine Benison mitigation, and Asylum healing & healing increase - meaning they were never cast.

This is also the first time I've heard a healer complain about tank invulns. (outside of Living Dead, which is a major resource dump.)

I won't deny that I often fail to use certain abilities. Things like Temperance, Benison, and Asylum are because either the other healer (in double healer format) gets theirs off before I do, and I don't want to waste mine, or simply because I don't always get the timing because I'm focusing on a different problem (or in the case of Asylum, the party isn't stacked or is moving too much for it to be worth the use). Much like Bene, Assize I save for specific situations. It's my first reaction AoE heal to while I get into position to hit PI + Rapture or Medica II. It's also my reaction to specific AoE effects. Temperance I just haven't figured out the best way or timing to use yet. It's a long cd, so I don't want to risk hitting it and then have it run out without doing anything. Benison, I've really only started to figure out the best uses for that recently. I try to get it out in time for tank busters, but that requires knowing which tank is going to take something to their face, which I can't always tell in enough time to react (I can't see "target of focus", only "target of target" which doesn't help unless I'm actively targeting the boss).

My idea of "OOM" is "I have less than 40% mana" because I know I'm going to have to res people, and that costs 2500 MP, after which I'm going to have to burn at least two instant casts OR hardcast a Cure II (another 1000MP) on them. My problem with tank invulns is *only* with Living Dead/Superbollide. The rest of them? I love them. Paladin's dropping Hallowed Ground? Awesome, I can toss them a Regen while I take a few seconds to stabilize the dps who have been standing in fire. Warrior's hitting Holmgang? Same thing. Pure invuln is not an issue. It's the ones that require me to dump a ton of resources in a very small amount of time that are a problem.

And in the case of big pulls (which is what this thread was originally about), it's about tanks who don't even use a basic defensive, and then expect the healer to pick up their slack. That's where mana issues come in.

[TheMightyMollusk]

This is also the first time I've heard a healer complain about tank invulns. (outside of Living Dead, which is a major resource dump.)

Everyone complains about Living Dead. It's a very clunky skill.

[Mixt]

There actually are players who get mad when someone does better than them, the term "Tryhard" tends to get flung around.

Apparantly it hurts their egos when someone performs better than them, so they have to lash out and tear that person down for daring to do a better job.

Fortunately they are fairly rare, but it only takes one.


And mutually exclusive demands are also a thing, where you are pulled in two separate directions and no matter which way you go people will get upset with you, because you cannot please everyone and it only takes a few ragers to ruin your day.

Giving one person what they want will piss another person off, and sometimes it turns out they did not want what they thought they did and then get mad at you for giving them what they asked for once the negative consequences of their desire manifest themselves. Because there is no such thing as taking personal responsibility for bad ideas that backfire, nope, gotta put the entirety of the blame on the people who did as you told them to do.


Disbelieving their existence won't make unpleasable jerks spew any less vitriol, if anything it just gives them an advantage because then you are not expecting them when they show up to ruin your day.

Heck, there are plenty of examples of ego-tripping jerkwads acting unreasonable in the big thread of duty finder horror stories.

[Breezelyn]

I respectfully disagree with you completely.

Big pulls are usually the norm in endgame dungeons (50, 60, 70, 80). Certain leveling dungeons in between there could be big pulled, but not always. It gets kind of risky if people aren't geared properly. As a healer main, I usually fall asleep when tank small pull in the endgame dungeons. I feel bored, it's just mashing 2-3 buttons over and over. Big pulls feel fun, it makes me more alert because the tank is taking more damage, and dps can aoe the mobs down. It's better on everyone's time to do big pulls in the bigger dungeons. I can understand when it's new content, and no one knows where they can big pull the first day or two. That's different, but after that? Big pulls please! Makes runs 10x faster.

If I tank, I usually ask if the healer wants big pulls. If they can't handle it, then it's small pulls. Communication goes a long way when you have to do pugs in DF. But usually pug tanks will big pull regardless. As others said, the tank sets the pace, but don't get offended when others start complain about being bored. It's different if you're still learning the dungeon, but people will get bored with baby pulls.

[Iscah]

That's what I meant. It's an exception to the "larger pulls go faster" because the DPSes aren't killing the pack any faster if they can only attack one enemy at a time. It just means the healer has to spam heals instead of contributing to DPS - and the tank being an alt in Lv15 armour was hardly helping things.

Exception to my previously-stated exception: it is very dependent on what level the tank is, and what gear they are wearing.

Just had much the same situation in Copperbell but with a tank in Shire gear, and it was far more successful. Eos could still handle most of the healing and I could still DPS.

So on the off chance you're reading this, Mr I-just-want-to-pull-the-entire-dungeon... yes you can, but not in your squishy Lv15 armour with (IIRC) a lancer and arcanist for DPS.