[Suggestion] Trick attack cooldown scalling with Skill Speed

[Shalfu]

Problem:

In its current state, Ninja cycles its cooldowns on a 360 seconds loop (If used on cd, ninja cooldowns are 60s, 90s, 120s). If we reduce these loops to a more manageable measure, we would take trick attack cooldown (60 seconds) and cut it in 6 pieces.
Of those 6 pieces:

• Even pieces would contain 2x Raiton 1x Hyosho 1x Suiton, The time to cast these isn't affected by skill speed hence, of those 60 seconds cycle, we can cut, 2.5x2 (raiton cast times) + 2.5 (hyosho cast time) + 3s (suiton cast time) [Including the mudras associated by their combinations]. This gives us a total of 10.5 seconds spend on non skill speed variable abilities.

• Odd pieces would have, on top of the same mentioned skills for Even pieces, a TCJ, that would add 3.5 seconds of time spend on non skill speed variable abilities cast time, for a total of 14s.

Recap, we have cycles of 60s with 14 and 10.5 seconds of non variable duration.

Now, Ninja's trick attack, is on a 60s non variable cooldown. This presents a problem when we have a part of the rotation which is variable by skill speed, our Weaponskills.

• These weaponskills, assuming you have huton up during all the 360seconds of the cycle, would take as long as 2.12 and as little as 1.90 seconds to be casted (Provided the minimum and maximum skill speed we can get during this tier [Eden Gate Savage])

• There isn't a single skill speed tier that would let us do Trick Attack on a strict cooldown during the 360 seconds of the complete cycle, due to the variance of even and odd tricks due to TCJ cast interference. Since the fractions wouldnt add up due to this time difference between even and odd trick attacks.

Suggestion:

-Make Trick Attack CD scale up to a minimum with huton or skill speed, in a range of maximum 2.12s reduction so you can still use it on cooldown no matter what skill speed you have in your gear or which abilities you use between them.

-I'm not asking for trick to have less cooldown than what it has, I'm asking for ninjas to be able to use our skill on cooldown rather than have an artificial longer cooldown due to interferences with other skill casts.

[Shurrikhan]

Let's not desync TA from all the other raid buffs.

That said, I'd gladly take SkS-scaling on the GCD inflictions of TCJ, Ninjutsu, and each Mudra, just as we saw changed for Tsubame Gaeshi.

Additionally, you could even have the Ninjutsu recharges scale with SkS, honestly, as that wouldn't cause any further desync issues now that it has two charges atop its 20-second Suiton buff.

[Risvertasashi]

Let's not desync TA from all the other raid buffs.

Yeah - scaling TA's CD would hurt ninja more than it helps. It's not just about lining up with your own rotation - it has to line up with the rest of the raid's too.

[Shalfu]

It shouldn't be as big of a reduction to desync it from other cds, this post wants to achieve the exact opposite, trick attack to be kept aligned by being able to fire it up as soon as its ready. In its current state, trick attack would drift out of other raid buffs and thats why the suggestion was made.

The problem, in less words, is that due to the interference in cast time used on ninjutsus and tcj, you get trick ready as your gcd is ready to be used, causing it to drift for 1s on each time you use it.
After 10 uses, that would mean 10s, pushing it out of other cds

[RydahX]

Let's not desync TA from all the other raid buffs.

That said, I'd gladly take SkS-scaling on the GCD inflictions of TCJ, Ninjutsu, and each Mudra, just as we saw changed for Tsubame Gaeshi.

Additionally, you could even have the Ninjutsu recharges scale with SkS, honestly, as that wouldn't cause any further desync issues now that it has two charges atop its 20-second Suiton buff.

The entire point of the post is to NOT make TA desync, as of now it desyncs a second per cast

[Shurrikhan]

The entire point of the post is to NOT make TA desync, as of now it desyncs a second per cast

As you said, though, that's due to Suiton and TCJ, and the fact that none of those scale with Attack Speed, for (60-11.5)mod[GCD] desync per TA. Usually, that's not even enough to be forced into deciding between a perfectly instant TA (at clip cost) and maximizing uptime (at cost of TA immediacy).

In either case, though, scaling it with SkS is going to be irrelevant to the factors currently desyncing it, and would ultimately just obscure what the player has to do to maintain sync with other raid buffs, making it harder for your team to rely on.

If you're getting delay from casting Suiton right before TA comes up... why? You have an entire Ninjutsu's cooldown of precasting available to you. There is no reason to push back TA over that. Maybe I'm just playing at a more favorable SkS breakpoint, but be it on a TCJ minute or no-TCJ minute, I've no problems getting TA up instantly upon refresh without clipping.

Meanwhile, scaling Raiton to a standard GCD, TCJ and Suiton each to a 125 or 133% GCD or so, and Fuma to a 67 or 75% GCD, and buffing Fuma to be equal or nearly equal in efficiency to Raiton given its shorter uptime cost, would allow for perfect sync; every Suiton, applied by TCJ or otherwise, could be evened out by a Fuma, so that your GCD could never put you in a position of weighing TA immediacy against uptime (which, ofc, uptime would always win, thus causing desync).

[Shalfu]

Meanwhile, scaling Raiton to a standard GCD, TCJ and Suiton each to a 125 or 133% GCD or so, and Fuma to a 67 or 75% GCD, and buffing Fuma to be equal or nearly equal in efficiency to Raiton given its shorter uptime cost, would allow for perfect sync; every Suiton, applied by TCJ or otherwise, could be evened out by a Fuma, so that your GCD could never put you in a position of weighing TA immediacy against uptime (which, ofc, uptime would always win, thus causing desync).

You cannot reduce those skills further down than 1.5 on their execution, and if you reduce the mudra recast, you are punishing the high ping players for no reason.

The weaving space between a Ninjutsu and a normal GCD is exactly 0.8, 0.7 would be taken by the animation of the ogcd you wanna get in between them, so its only 0.1 room for ping to take place. Reducing ninjutsu recast by sks will only enhance ping problems.
Mudras, on the other hand, have a 0.5 recast time. 0.35 animation lock. You could reduce this further down, but as it is, at the moment, is already a problem for people with 200ms, since they are clipping their gcd to queue mudras. Again, reducing the mudra recast time will enhance ping problems.

Trick attack recast time adjusted to sks will not affect high ping or lower ping.

[Shurrikhan]

You cannot reduce those skills further down than 1.5.

You can. See Meditation.

and if you reduce the mudra recast, you are punishing the high ping players for no reason.

At 20% SkS, a whopping 7k+ stat, you'd have reduced acceptable ping from its current maximum of 250 to... 200. 50 ms effect on a very small span of the playerbase, in order to allow for perfect sync for the 80+% of players at or beneath 200 ms ping.

The weaving space between a Ninjutsu and a normal GCD is exactly 0.8, 0.7 would be taken by the animation of the ogcd you wanna get in between them, so its only 0.1 room for ping to take place.

Which means it can already only support 50 ms of ping. Why then have a weave space there at all? That defeats the purpose of the whole change. Get rid of it, allowing for perfect sync, and just don't wait until Trick Attack to hit Suiton. Our Ninjutsu will always outpace our Trick Attack regardless, due to casting Suiton on pull but waiting until a later GCD to actually use it. You do NOT need to use TA immediately after Ninjutsu.

Trick attack recast time adjusted to sks will not affect high ping or lower ping.

By doing nearly nothing for either side. There are fixed GCD intervals, even given complete adherence to an optimal rotation, that currently allow for a perfectly timed Trick Attack. Scaling TA, rather than the things actually causing the desync, merely changes those intervals. Unless we are suddenly forced to stack SkS despite its low relative weight past entry gear, it's not going to add a single interval to that list, only change where they are.

[Shalfu]

You can. See Meditation.

You just read the part you wanted to read, keep reading for the reason why you cannot reduce it.

At 20% SkS, a whopping 7k+ stat, you'd have reduced acceptable ping from its current maximum of 250 to... 200. 50 ms effect on a very small span of the playerbase, in order to allow for perfect sync for the 80+% of players at or beneath 200 ms ping.

Ninja has huton effect, which is already 15% sks. Again, keep reading on the post to see why i give the reason.

Which means it can already only support 50 ms of ping. Why then have a weave space there at all? That defeats the purpose of the whole change. Get rid of it, allowing for perfect sync, and just don't wait until Trick Attack to hit Suiton

No, it supports 100ms players. Clearly you don't know what im talking about if you think we are waiting for trick to come out of cooldown to use suiton.

By doing nearly nothing for either side. There are fixed GCD intervals, even given complete adherence to an optimal rotation, that currently allow for a perfectly timed Trick Attack. Scaling TA, rather than the things actually causing the desync, merely changes those intervals. Unless we are suddenly forced to stack SkS despite its low relative weight past entry gear, it's not going to add a single interval to that list, only change where they are.

No, they arent fixed intervals when there is a fixed amount of time tied to ninjutsus and another fraction of time tied to variable gcd values.

I'm also the designer of the current ninja opener and rotation, trust me, i know a thing or two about the job.


I invite you to play ninja once, stopwatch on the Battle tab the time for your trick and compare for yourself that this last statement you made is not possible. Since it seems you haven't played it before, or atleast, since the changes had happened or without trying to perform an optimal rotation.

[Vendalwind]

Im all for having SkS effect more things. Ive always wanted to be able to play a speed nin.

Fixing desync would be wondeful. The trick to this tho would be making the scaling minimal such that youd never have people moving early for pdps reasons. If it scaled at the same rate shadow fang currently does that problem would exist.

As it stands NIN as a class has more than 25% of its GCD skill time consumed casting GCDs un-effected by SkS. This causes many many issues with properly aligning.

I like the trick scaling idea. I also like shurikans general scaling idea even more as long as it was carefully thought out for a specific rotation by the devs.

Im quite happy with nin atm, but i gotta say. I oddly feel more stressed during trick than i ever did before because its so easy for us to lose alignment with cascading effects into every future trick for the rest of the fight. That could just be growing pains tho of getting to know the new nin.

And i personally was also dissapointed when bunshin was changed such that sks would no longer have as much effect on its output. Because ive always hoped speed nin would be a viable thing someday.