Sundering and specific character questions. [Spoilers]

[Vyrerus]

Oh I completely understood/saw the fascist coding/subtext for his spiel too. I just was also wondering if from the Watsonian level of text, he meant it literally or metaphorically/politically?

And it seems you do think Varis was being literal though?
Do you believe Varis’ presumption was correct though? That if all the rejoinings had been allowed to occur, would all the (native) sapient races in The Source be magically turned into the same physiological race/species?

If they lived through the process, yes. It's clear blow for blow in the game text, and you even see some of the Eorzean Alliance leaders' main beef be, "There will be no one left!"

Of course, though, the Sundering occurred after the Final Days, and they still haven't given us any missing link for the, "New Life" that Zodiark made/caused, so I assume if what races there are now were post Final Days but pre-Sundering we might also stay the same, physically.

Of course, all of the playable races and even a few of the ones that aren't are capable of breeding with each other, so we already are the same species, really. We just look different cause this magical world is magically jank like that, yo.

[Theozilla]

If they lived through the process, yes. It's clear blow for blow in the game text, and you even see some of the Eorzean Alliance leaders' main beef be, "There will be no one left!"

Of course, though, the Sundering occurred after the Final Days, and they still haven't given us any missing link for the, "New Life" that Zodiark made/caused, so I assume if what races there are now were post Final Days but pre-Sundering we might also stay the same, physically.

Of course, all of the playable races and even a few of the ones that aren't are capable of breeding with each other, so we already are the same species, really. We just look different cause this magical world is magically jank like that, yo.

While the ability to breed is often a marker of speciation, it’s not the sole determining factor. There are hybrid animals that occur naturally (though rare and the fertility of the offspring can be variable) from parents of two different species. So I think it could be argued that the different “races” in FFXIV are more accurately different species.

And while the Alliance leaders were reacting in horror, I believe they were more reacting at the hypothetical loss of life that would be necessary for 5-6 more rejoinings, than of the prospect of there literally being only one (native) sapient race/species.
I feel like if Varis was being literal, it seems more likely he was incorrect in his presumption of all races magically turning into the same (biologically and physiologically), as I never really got the impression from Emet-Selch in 5.0 that the rejoinings affected more than the souls/longevity/aetheric power. I didn’t feel like Emet-Selch ever implied that the races would magically become the all the same literally.

[SannaR]

I think that Varis thinks that we would not only be on the same level aethorially but also somehow all turn into pureblooded Garleans. I don't think the last would be the case. We also don't know if everyone would be the same aether wise. Everyone would gain a boost to their aether, but would everyone be equal? As we know when the Convocation sacrificed more to get the ball rolling again the new life didn't have the same amount of aether as those who were still an Ancient. That difference being one if not the only reason why they went nope I want a reroll.

So, would everyone if we rejoined the rest have an equal share of Aether or would those who have an Ancient soul have more? Since even with seven joinings there are different levels of aether in people. Look at the youngest of the brothers who run the THM guild. The poor guy can't make fire flicker. The girl in the RDM questline also doesn't have a lot of aether vs us and X'Ruhn so that casting spells is hard for her.

[Theozilla]

I think that Varis thinks that we would not only be on the same level aethorially but also somehow all turn into pureblooded Garleans. I don't think the last would be the case. We also don't know if everyone would be the same aether wise. Everyone would gain a boost to their aether, but would everyone be equal? As we know when the Convocation sacrificed more to get the ball rolling again the new life didn't have the same amount of aether as those who were still an Ancient. That difference being one if not the only reason why they went nope I want a reroll.

So, would everyone if we rejoined the rest have an equal share of Aether or would those who have an Ancient soul have more? Since even with seven joinings there are different levels of aether in people. Look at the youngest of the brothers who run the THM guild. The poor guy can't make fire flicker. The girl in the RDM questline also doesn't have a lot of aether vs us and X'Ruhn so that casting spells is hard for her.

So you also agree with the reading that Varis was being literally and not just metaphorical?

And where was it stated that the new life Zodiark cultivated/renewed before the Sundering was less powerful/had less aether power than the average Ancient? I see that stated a lot, but I can’t recall where it was stated in the game itself?

Also I assume that even among Ancients there was individual variation in aetheric power (even if the “weakest” Ancient would still be significantly more powerful than an average sundered soul) like the variation in ability to see/identify souls, as we saw in the short story with Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus.

[SannaR]

So you also agree with the reading that Varis was being literally and not just metaphorical?

And where was it stated that the new life Zodiark cultivated/renewed before the Sundering was less powerful/had less aether power than the average Ancient? I see that stated a lot, but I can’t recall where it was stated in the game itself?

Also I assume that even among Ancients there was individual variation in aetheric power (even if the “weakest” Ancient would still be significantly more powerful than an average sundered soul) like the variation in ability to see/identify souls, as we saw in the short story with Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus.

I just don't see Varis as a metaphysical type. It mostly comes from the 2nd Emet story from the Tale from the Shadows side story. Though when you pick up the convocation crystals I want to say there's at least one or two that talk about how the new life that has been born are seen as ugly and thus the need for them to be killed. There seems to be hints that even among the Ancients there was some who were weaker. As when we do that quest to make the black cloak they mention that if you can't do it on your own you can check out the recipe for it and use that acts as a boost.

[Theozilla]

I just don't see Varis as a metaphysical type. It mostly comes from the 2nd Emet story from the Tale from the Shadows side story. Though when you pick up the convocation crystals I want to say there's at least one or two that talk about how the new life that has been born are seen as ugly and thus the need for them to be killed. There seems to be hints that even among the Ancients there was some who were weaker. As when we do that quest to make the black cloak they mention that if you can't do it on your own you can check out the recipe for it and use that acts as a boost.

Did you mean to say Varis isn’t the metaphorical type? Because metaphysical is very different from metaphorical.

Anyways, I will be sure to go back and check and read those sources/parts.

[Jandor]

And where was it stated that the new life Zodiark cultivated/renewed before the Sundering was less powerful/had less aether power than the average Ancient? I see that stated a lot, but I can’t recall where it was stated in the game itself?

I think it's mostly assumed. The Ancients seem fine with killing them, which would imply they see them as lesser, and at no point does anyone seem concerned about the idea they might not approve of being killed off, implying that the new life doesn't have any real capacity to resist the decision.

-----

We don't really know the nature of the new life, we mostly seem to assume it was sapient because Venat thought it worth saving. For all we know though Venat was just a nutter who was really into trees and bugs and stuff.

[Beddict]

Going back a few pages here to answer this:

And where was it stated that the new life Zodiark cultivated/renewed before the Sundering was less powerful/had less aether power than the average Ancient? I see that stated a lot, but I can’t recall where it was stated in the game itself?

It comes from Patch 5.3 with the Convocation Crystals. The Crystal for Emet-Selch reads:

Gone is the brilliant radiance of life, replaced by the sickly glow of malformed creatures. Is this to be how it ends? For we who loved the star with all our being? No. I will not suffer it to be so.

That said, there's a chance he's talking about life post-Sundering. The Convocation Crystals seem to cover quite the range of time, with Lahabrea talking about how they need to rewrite the laws of creation which would be before the summoning of Zodiark, and Pashtarot talking about how salvation came at a great cost which would be after the summoning of Zodiark. Most notably, Halmarut has this to say in their Convocation Crystal:

Behold, my friends.
Embraced by the earth and caressed by the wind, vibrant life flourishes. All is right in creation.

We don't know how gifted Halmarut was at seeing souls, if at all, so there's a chance they might not have noticed how malformed the new life was. Either way, this quote definitely happens after the second Amaurotine sacrifice and before the Sundering. As for Emet-Selch, his quote could be before or after the Sundering. Since he was so incredibly gifted when it came to looking at souls there's a chance he saw the new life created by Zodiark as malformed where Halmarut didn't, or he was talking about the Sundered lifeforms which we know he thinks poorly of. It could go either way.

[SannaR]

Yes, I meant metaphorical.

[KageTokage]

That makes me wonder if the individual presumed to be Venat is using her original appearance, because outwardly she just looks to be a Hyur of fairly normal stature.

Though she did mention she'd always be present in one form or another, which suggests she's been somehow changing over the millenia.