FF 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers

[Oxdarock]

Why would you ever delay Flourish as much as you have? And why start with a Fountain > Cascade combo when you should immediately be setting up Technical Step. Your second opener has the very likelihood of your Flourished procs falling out of your Technical Finish buff window, which is a huge no-no as it’s a major personal DPS loss. Flourish and Technical Finish compliment one another (TF’s buff is 20 seconds and all Flourished procs are 20 seconds), and should never be arbitrarily delayed for the weaker Fountain > Cascade combo (and subsequent, unaccounted for procs).

I’ll stick with the already established DNC opener, and I highly recommend all prospective DNCs and DNCs interested in optimizing do the same.

So long as you get Bloodshower and FountainFall within Tech Finish, it's pretty much filled with GCDs over 300 potency. Also, double-weaving Devilment and Flourish causes clipping.

Besides, the bigger issue are the Saber Dance procs, as using them takes priority over Flourish moves within the Tech Finish window, even though it could cause you to lose a Flourish Procs (SE really needs to make it so that Saber Dance refreshes Flourish procs. At least by 5 secs...)

I wouldn't necessarily say that Flourish lines up perfectly with Tech Finish either because you could find yourself in a situation where you go into Tech Step with a Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall proc, as well as enough Espirit for a Saber Dance and/or Standard Step might come off of CD or be ready to go. Obviously, you don't want to overwrite those two procs and you'd want to hold it till after Saber Dance and Standard Step so you lower the risk of losing Flourish procs at all, let alone worrying about them falling out of the Tech Finish window.

[HyoMinPark]

So long as you get Bloodshower and FountainFall within Tech Finish, it's pretty much filled with GCDs over 300 potency. Also, double-weaving Devilment and Flourish causes clipping.

I’m very much aware. That why the standard opener has you do Tech Finish > Flourish > RW > Devilment. It avoids the clipping, and pushes your stronger procs into Trick Attack windows if your group is running a NIN.

Losing any procs during a TF window is still a personal DPS loss. You also aren’t accounting for Saber Dance pushing out Bloodshower and Fountainfall.

Besides, the bigger issue are the Saber Dance procs, as using them takes priority over Flourish moves within the Tech Finish window, even though it could cause you to lose a Flourish Procs (SE really needs to make it so that Saber Dance refreshes Flourish procs. At least by 5 secs...)

So you would obviously not want to exacerbate this issue by delaying Flourish as you have. With the standard opener, you are likely to get in all Saber procs and Flourished procs during your TF window. At most, you will lose out on 1 proc. Your proposed opener has you potentially losing more than that with a buff window because you want to, what? Cascade > Fountain at the start of the fight? That’s not optimal.

This is to say nothing that your arbitrary delay makes it very likely to lose out on a Flourish cast entirely, as it’s only 60 seconds. As it stands now, I’ve ended some runs losing out on a proc or two—but that’s better than losing an entire cast because you desire to change the established raid buff windows.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Flourish lines up perfectly with Tech Finish either because you could find yourself in a situation where you go into Tech Step with a Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall proc, as well as enough Espirit for a Saber Dance and/or Standard Step might come off of CD or be ready to go. Obviously, you don't want to overwrite those two procs and you'd want to hold it till after Saber Dance and Standard Step so you lower the risk of losing Flourish procs at all, let alone worrying about them falling out of the Tech Finish window.

You will never have a situation where you will have both Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall going into your TF window if you are managing procs correctly. At most, you end up with a delayed Flourish if your Flourish was delayed by a proc or two during the intermittent Flourish uses (i.e., the Flourishes between Technical Finish windows). The standard opener does not start with a Cascade > Fountain at all, thereby eliminating the possibility of ever having unaccounted for procs in your opener.

Did you consult with any of the DNC theorycrafters about these “openers”?

I cannot stress enough that the optimal way to play DNC has already been decided. As has its opener and general priority rotation. You admitted in another thread that you are only able to do simple maths. If you cannot do the math required to determine optimal play, perhaps you should stop trying to invent openers for the jobs. Your previous openers were suboptimal, as are these.



On an unrelated-to-DNC note, your DRG openers also have random uses of BotD after FnC or WT when there’s no reason to use it, as both FnC and WT extend BotD. It’s virtually impossible to drop BotD now, so there’s no reason to “refresh” it by pressing BotD. I’m not a DRG main, but even I know that’s a pointless button press. If you cannot fundamentally understand these jobs, why are you suggesting new openers for them?

[Oxdarock]

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I'm still not seeing the problem with Saber Dance pushing procs out of Tech Finish since it takes priority. If you mean that Saber Dance pushes out Bloodshower and FountainFall if you follow this exact rotation, that means you just have to rearrange the GCDs so that they do fit into Tech Finish (didn't think it was worth mentioning, but I guess I can add it as an extra note).

I'm not 100% sure I can address the possibility of losing a cast of Flourish overall sufficiently cause there are various situations that can happen, especially on a proc-heavy class like DNC. Let's say you do use Tech Step right after Standard Step and then use Flourish. The next time Flourish comes around, you may have a Flourish proc or you may not, and if it's the former, Flourish will get pushed back a GCD or two. When the next Tech Finish comes around, you'd save Flourish for after Saber Dance (which you'd go into Tech Finish with enough Espirit for) or else risk losing the use of a Flourish move altogether, but end up getting a quick succession of Saber Dance procs, pushing Flourish even further back anyway.

Also, Flourish is more akin to an oGCD rather than a buff. You use it and it instantly gives you five Flourished abilities. The real question is whether you lose a Flourish proc or not, which can happen whether you've used Flourish or get natural procs before a fight ends or a phase transition. Then you might have a run where you get so many natural Flourish procs that losing a cast of Flourish actually doesn't matter. Lot of situations to consider with DNC that keep one from giving a definitive answer.

I haven't contacted Theorycrafters about this DNC opener, but I've used it myself for some endgame content, so I'm familiar with how it plays.

Also, I made some silly mistakes with the DRG opener. The second BotD is supposed to be Battle Litany and the second Wheeling Thrust is missing for some reason. Whoops. ^^;

[HyoMinPark]

I'm still not seeing the problem with Saber Dance pushing procs out of Tech Finish since it takes priority. If you mean that Saber Dance pushes out Bloodshower and FountainFall if you follow this exact rotation, that means you just have to rearrange the GCDs so that they do fit into Tech Finish (didn't think it was worth mentioning, but I guess I can add it as an extra note).

The problem is that your Flourished procs are not buffed by Technical Finish’s 5% buff (on top of the already passive 5% Standard Finish buff you have), which is a DPS loss. They will also not be susceptible to Devilment’s increased Crit/D.Hit chance, another potential DPS loss. With the standard DNC opener, the only loss of damage you get if is one of your procs drops. Otherwise, they all fit within a TF window along with your Saber Dance procs, so none of the Flourished skills lose out on the +5% from TF or the additional Crit/D.Hit chance of Devilment.

You’re incredibly insistent on changing buff alignment to be more “uniform”, but you can’t seem the grasp the idea that your proposed DNC “openers” potentially push some of your most potent skills outside of your personal buff window. Defending it with the priority system doesn’t work, since the current opener manages to get all Flourished skills, all Saber Dances, and Standard Finish within the Tech Finish/Devilment window while simultaneously respecting DNC’s priority system. Please, if you can’t understand simple concepts of damage loss, you shouldn’t be designing openers.

I'm not 100% sure I can address the possibility of losing a cast of Flourish overall sufficiently cause there are various situations that can happen, especially on a proc-heavy class like DNC. Let's say you do use Tech Step right after Standard Step and then use Flourish. The next time Flourish comes around, you may have a Flourish proc or you may not, and if it's the former, Flourish will get pushed back a GCD or two. When the next Tech Finish comes around, you'd save Flourish for after Saber Dance (which you'd go into Tech Finish with enough Espirit for) or else risk losing the use of a Flourish move altogether, but end up getting a quick succession of Saber Dance procs, pushing Flourish even further back anyway.

If you have to push TF back a GCD for a proc, that is how you play the job. You keep in mind your delay, but still use the skill on cooldown so long as you do not overwrite a proc. Naturally, Flourish will not drift enough for you to push all of your procs out of a buff window unless you are just completely negligent with managing your rotation. At most, I end up delaying it by maybe a GCD or two—but a lot of TF windows in the current tier require being held for party members to gather (E1S, E2S, E4S), or are affected by downtime (E4S), allowing your cooldowns to realign.

You do not, however, delay Flourish in the opener as you have done here, because now you’ve pushed all subsequent uses back far more than a stray proc would push it back. Keep in mind that you may still get a proc with this proposed usage you’re making before any given Flourish cast, pushing it back even more. The more you push back each Flourish cast, the more you risk all of your Flourished skills not being buffed by your personal buff window with the proposed openers you have made here.

You also cannot guarantee ever going into a Technical window with enough Esprit for a Saber Dance unless you’re in a scenario like E4S, where fight downtime allows you to channel Improvisation for Espirt. Generally, I believe it’s recommended to not be at a high Espirt gauge value before entering Technical Finish because of the likelihood of overcapping your Esprit gauge, which is a huge damage loss.

Also, Flourish is more akin to an oGCD rather than a buff. You use it and it instantly gives you five Flourished abilities. The real question is whether you lose a Flourish proc or not, which can happen whether you've used Flourish or get natural procs before a fight ends or a phase transition. Then you might have a run where you get so many natural Flourish procs that losing a cast of Flourish actually doesn't matter. Lot of situations to consider with DNC that keep one from giving a definitive answer.

Sweetheart, you don’t need to explain how Flourish works to me. I’m already aware of how my job plays. Even if it is “more akin to an oGCD”, it has a relatively short cooldown tuner that is highly susceptible to kill times pushing out an entire use of the skill if it is unnecessarily delayed.

No, the real question is if you lose a cast of it or not. With the way you’re insisting on delaying its very first usage, it’s entirely possible. No, getting “extra procs” throughout a fight doesn’t “make up” losing an entire usage of the skill.

I haven't contacted Theorycrafters about this DNC opener

I already figured as much.

but I've used it myself for some endgame content, so I'm familiar with how it plays.

Yeah, and I don’t think it’s particularly working for you, if the runs of Innocence I looked at are any indication.

Also, I made some silly mistakes with the DRG opener. The second BotD is supposed to be Battle Litany and the second Wheeling Thrust is missing for some reason. Whoops. ^^;

There were more mistakes than just that.


Look. I get that you have this thing with wanting to make the Tornado Kick opener on MNK actually viable, but as I said to you the last time you posted openers, changing buff alignments and changing openers for all the jobs is not worth it for one skill the developers made defunct. The most optimal buff alignments and openers have already been decided—they won’t change, and you should really stop pushing your openers with the name of The Balance included amongst them as if the theorycrafters there endorse what you have done.

[Rasikko]

Edit: Actually everything regarding DNC by others is well explained. There is just one "rotation" (more like sequence in the case of DNC) that works and nothing else.

[HyoMinPark]

Edit: Actually everything regarding DNC by others is well explained. There is just one "rotation" (more like sequence in the case of DNC) that works and nothing else.

There’s technically 2—if you’ve partnered a DRG, you Devilment after your on-the-pull Standard Finish right before you begin Technical Step. But that’s the only deviation from the standard opener.

With these, Flourish is delayed so much that you risk misaligning it with your Technical Finish burst entirely. In the scenario of the second opener, one Saber Dance proc before you blow the two random Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall procs from the opening Cascade > Fountain sequence pushes Flourish’s use to roughly 15 seconds into your Technical Finish window. If an odd-number Flourish is delayed by even 1 GCD (odd-numbered Flourishes are the ones between TF windows), you’ve basically pushed its use to 17~18 seconds into your burst. A second 1 GCD delay pushes Flourish out of your burst window entirely.

OP’s lack of understanding of this proves he doesn’t understand the basics of optimizing the job, or how detrimental his desire to Cascade > Fountain before Technical can hurt the job’s alignment and burst. I just hope prospective DNCs ignore these “options”—because, at the end of the day, there are very few “options” for mathematically optimal openers. This game is extremely rigid in terms of what’s mathematically the best and what’s mathematically subpar.

[ZyrinMisharuji]

There’s technically 2—if you’ve partnered a DRG, you Devilment after your on-the-pull Standard Finish right before you begin Technical Step. But that’s the only deviation from the standard opener.

With these, Flourish is delayed so much that you risk misaligning it with your Technical Finish burst entirely. In the scenario of the second opener, one Saber Dance proc before you blow the two random Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall procs from the opening Cascade > Fountain sequence pushes Flourish’s use to roughly 15 seconds into your Technical Finish window. If an odd-number Flourish is delayed by even 1 GCD (odd-numbered Flourishes are the ones between TF windows), you’ve basically pushed its use to 17~18 seconds into your burst. A second 1 GCD delay pushes Flourish out of your burst window entirely.

OP’s lack of understanding of this proves he doesn’t understand the basics of optimizing the job, or how detrimental his desire to Cascade > Fountain before Technical can hurt the job’s alignment and burst. I just hope prospective DNCs ignore these “options”—because, at the end of the day, there are very few “options” for mathematically optimal openers. This game is extremely rigid in terms of what’s mathematically the best and what’s mathematically subpar.

Yeah, the DNC in my group stresses so much on the fact that he cannot hold buffs (or do like ranged LB on healer gaols in Titan) because it will ruin his alignment for the entire rest of the fight cause it's just that strict of a rotation. Which just kinda tells me the OP has not put any time in most of these jobs nor has he thoroughly discussed them with people who are well versed in these jobs, otherwise he'd know things like this.

[HyoMinPark]

Yeah, the DNC in my group stresses so much on the fact that he cannot hold buffs (or do like ranged LB on healer gaols in Titan) because it will ruin his alignment for the entire rest of the fight cause it's just that strict of a rotation. Which just kinda tells me the OP has not put any time in most of these jobs nor has he thoroughly discussed them with people who are well versed in these jobs, otherwise he'd know things like this.

He should be able to LB the first set of gaols without really losing much. Here’s the tip from the DNC Guide for each fight this tier:

If you are Limit Breaking the first Rock Throw / Granite Gaols (Healer Jails) make sure you use Standard Step(Assuming it is available before you start LBing) then use Limit Break. If you have been using Standard Step with no drifting, you can get both steps off then Limit Break. After the LB, depending if there has been a drift or not, use Standard Finish (don't forget the 2 steps first if needed)

My group does ranged LB3 on the second jails, but there’s talk in the Balance showing Caster LB3 is better there. I know for me, I can get all my Flourished procs off before I LB, but then SF is delayed a bit. The BLM in my static offered to LB3 the second hails and I may just let him. We don’t LB2 the first ones, even though LB2 first jails > melee LB3 boss is an option.

Tl;dr - LB shenanigans in E4S are annoying. But doable.

[ZyrinMisharuji]

He should be able to LB the first set of gaols without really losing much. Here’s the tip from the DNC Guide for each fight this tier:



My group does ranged LB3 on the second jails, but there’s talk in the Balance showing Caster LB3 is better there. I know for me, I can get all my Flourished procs off before I LB, but then SF is delayed a bit. The BLM in my static offered to LB3 the second hails and I may just let him. We don’t LB2 the first ones, even though LB2 first jails > melee LB3 boss is an option.

Tl;dr - LB shenanigans in E4S are annoying. But doable.

Hmm, I didn't know that. But my group has been doing SMN LB3 on 2nd goals for awhile cause the tanks can hit the gaols a few times while the DPS remain on the boss and the LB will break the gaols.