5.1 Crafting Feedback Thread

[Maeka]

Good luck!


They told us before the expansion started that the changes were going to be rolled out in stages. Making crafting/gathering easier to get into would be first. Adding in more advanced content for those who use crafting/gathering as their primary end game would be second.

Not SE's fault that part of the player base wasn't paying attention to what they were being told and decided that things would be happening differently.

They already told us that Master 3 star crafting isn't going to be hard. They don't want the Master recipe items being the province of the "privileged few". It's going to be the standard difficulty increase that gets offset by the correct overmelds and foods/syrup. People will test rotations in Teamcraft in short order then share their macros online so anyone willing to take the time/gil to overmeld their gear will be able to make them.

It's the new Expert recipes that will be hard, presumably because of the new variable conditions they will have outside of Good/Excellent/Poor that should make macros useless. We'll have to wait for 5.2 to come out so we can see.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a final round of action balance adjustments in 5.3 once they get a chance to see how things play out in the hands of players.

Ahh, so they're adding a new thing. I don't keep up with Live Letters and news that much admittedly.

But yes, I do wish the players would actually read and pay attention to what they are told. I mean, if someone is an endgame crafter who is invested enough to go flying off the handle at the 5.1 changes, then they should be invested enough to actually read and understand what was said. If they said that this was only the first round of changes, then they should have known that all they gotta do is wait for the rest of the changes. But then, I will also admit that I have noticed that more hardcore players are also the less patient players and they gotta have things NOW, rather than later.

Casuals tend to be the more relaxed and patient types. We have to be, because we waited several years for a more fun crafting system. I think the Hardcores can wait a few months before they get back into making their ridiculous stacks of gil that they have nothing to spend it on.

[Jojoya]

tend to be the more relaxed and patient types. We have to be, because we waited several years for a more fun crafting system. I think the Hardcores can wait a few months before they get back into making their ridiculous stacks of gil that they have nothing to spend it on.

What wasn't fun about the crafting system before that deterred you from getting into it?

What makes it fun now?

There's really only been 2 major changes - the removal of cross class actions (which weren't necessary in the first place, they just made it possible to get HQ reliably on more difficult recipes instead of relying on RNG) and a massive increase to XP to speed up leveling. The remaining changes are relatively minor, akin to balance adjustments that combat jobs get every expansion.

You still have to use actions to increase quality and synthesis progress. You're still limited by durability and CP. You're still going to have to level up all the classes if you want to be self-sufficient or buy from other players the materials you need that aren't made by your class. You're still going to have to keep your gear up to date and overmeld it to reliably get HQ on current level Master recipes. If you suck at the math mini-game, you're still going to be reliant on Teamcraft or waiting for other players to share their macros with you so you can make those Master recipes.

If you didn't enjoy crafting before the changes, chances are good you're still not going to enjoy it after. At its core, the system hasn't really changed. It's just quicker for you to reach level cap.

As for people with ridiculous stacks of gil, you can thank the player base for being willing to pay other players for the things they're too lazy to get/make for themselves.

You had the option to become one of the rich players by putting in the same effort they did. You chose not to.

[ReviaInfantry]

Leveling class quest and checking market board for price:

DoH : Holy it's so expensive. Screw those high price sellers.

Crafter : White Mage it's so expensive, Imma craft myself and sell a few of those.

[Maeka]

What wasn't fun about the crafting system before that deterred you from getting into it?

What makes it fun now?

The sheer amount of grinding it took to levelup, to be honest. And/or how you had way too many buttons and it was far too confusing, that most people simply just looked up whatever macros they needed.

There's really only been 2 major changes - the removal of cross class actions (which weren't necessary in the first place, they just made it possible to get HQ reliably on more difficult recipes instead of relying on RNG) and a massive increase to XP to speed up leveling. The remaining changes are relatively minor, akin to balance adjustments that combat jobs get every expansion.

You still have to use actions to increase quality and synthesis progress. You're still limited by durability and CP. You're still going to have to level up all the classes if you want to be self-sufficient or buy from other players the materials you need that aren't made by your class. You're still going to have to keep your gear up to date and overmeld it to reliably get HQ on current level Master recipes. If you suck at the math mini-game, you're still going to be reliant on Teamcraft or waiting for other players to share their macros with you so you can make those Master recipes.

The "rotations" and/or actions are far more intuitive now, and yes, the XP change makes a large difference, and it feels smoother to actually HQ items now than it did in the past, and removing the button bloat was a huge change in the right direction.

If you didn't enjoy crafting before the changes, chances are good you're still not going to enjoy it after. At its core, the system hasn't really changed. It's just quicker for you to reach level cap.

Wrong, I make stuff on a regular basis now. I only touched crafting a little before 5.1 and within a few weeks, I set out to get all the crafts on 80, do all the craft/gatherer class quests, etc, which I did in maybe two weeks. It was fun, and I enjoyed it. I still make things now and then, and had juggled the idea of getting into making facet stuff, but I don't really have the time for that just yet.

You had the option to become one of the rich players by putting in the same effort they did. You chose not to.

Or maybe I was not able to, because of IRL obligations? And besides, there's a point where established crafters were always going to "win" no matter what, and regardless of what work a new player entering the ring puts in, they are never going to catch up without some sort of re-balancing (which is what 5.1 was). You could put all the work possible in, and still never catch up to those people who had 9-digit figure bank accounts who already ruled the MB.

[Nandrolone]

Or maybe I was not able to, because of IRL obligations? And besides, there's a point where established crafters were always going to "win" no matter what, and regardless of what work a new player entering the ring puts in, they are never going to catch up without some sort of re-balancing (which is what 5.1 was). You could put all the work possible in, and still never catch up to those people who had 9-digit figure bank accounts who already ruled the MB.

well, I first started crafting when ARR artisans gear was a big deal, right? there were only like maybe...5-6 top crafters with loads of Gil? ruling the market and pushing out anyone who entered the marketboard. back then, I was working a 9 - 5 job, and took my classes online. I gathered my butt off, to earn enough gil so I could level my crafters and gatherers, and even calculated effort spent VS time spent on certain things, and made prices through spreadsheets. I had to work really hard to compete with those top crafters, ya know. it took months to get there, but I got there. you just have to want it badly, trust me on this.

to have all that hard work and dedication removed, and yoshida/the dev team giving you the middle finger, really gets to you and makes you just lose hope for the future of the game. I know choosing the player base that nets the largest income is best, but the players you choose to ignore (the competitive hardcore peeps) will just get super depressed and not enjoy your game anymore.

and I understand not many people are willing to go through so much trouble just for some video game prestige, but for some people, myself included, it was a way to escape reality and show off how good you really are if you put your mind to it. i mean, that’s why most of us play right? to escape reality and have fun. end result was, billions of Gil, and the knowledge of making my own rotations. (I lost my passion for crafting in this game due to the unnecessary easy difficulty in everything. but when I did have passion, I went at it hard!) like I said, I’m glad you and others enjoy crafting now, but what I think JoJoya is trying to say is that for most people, not including you it seems, is that....if you didn’t enjoy crafting then, you won’t stick with it for long now.

[NanaWiloh]

well, I first started crafting when ARR artisans gear was a big deal, right? there were only like maybe...5-6 top crafters with loads of Gil? ruling the market and pushing out anyone who entered the marketboard. back then, I was working a 9 - 5 job, and took my classes online. I gathered my butt off, to earn enough gil so I could level my crafters and gatherers, and even calculated effort spent VS time spent on certain things, and made prices through spreadsheets. I had to work really hard to compete with those top crafters, ya know. it took months to get there, but I got there. you just have to want it badly, trust me on this.

to have all that hard work and dedication removed, and yoshida/the dev team giving you the middle finger, really gets to you and makes you just lose hope for the future of the game. I know choosing the player base that nets the largest income is best, but the players you choose to ignore (the competitive hardcore peeps) will just get super depressed and not enjoy your game anymore.

and I understand not many people are willing to go through so much trouble just for some video game prestige, but for some people, myself included, it was a way to escape reality and show off how good you really are if you put your mind to it. i mean, that’s why most of us play right? to escape reality and have fun. end result was, billions of Gil, and the knowledge of making my own rotations. (I lost my passion for crafting in this game due to the unnecessary easy difficulty in everything. but when I did have passion, I went at it hard!) like I said, I’m glad you and others enjoy crafting now, but what I think JoJoya is trying to say is that for most people, not including you it seems, is that....if you didn’t enjoy crafting then, you won’t stick with it for long now.

Wrong on so many levels you want people to understand your end then understand theirs. Not everyone crafts for gil and Bragging rights some of us do it simply cause we enjoy it. Not everyone cares about your accomplishments either there are players who would call you a no lifer for doing spreadsheets for it. I have been crafting since ARR busting my rear as hard as any hardcore crafter as I struggled with the system.

As for expert recipes they wont remain hardcore only for long. Theory crafters will have stats, rotations and how to change the rotation when the proc happens out with a month or two of patch 5.2. Just like ARR days people released rotations and how to respond to conditions all you need was the gear, which unlike then is easier too get now.

[Maeka]

well, I first started crafting when ARR artisans gear was a big deal, right? there were only like maybe...5-6 top crafters with loads of Gil? ruling the market and pushing out anyone who entered the marketboard. back then, I was working a 9 - 5 job, and took my classes online. I gathered my butt off, to earn enough gil so I could level my crafters and gatherers, and even calculated effort spent VS time spent on certain things, and made prices through spreadsheets. I had to work really hard to compete with those top crafters, ya know. it took months to get there, but I got there. you just have to want it badly, trust me on this.

to have all that hard work and dedication removed, and yoshida/the dev team giving you the middle finger, really gets to you and makes you just lose hope for the future of the game. I know choosing the player base that nets the largest income is best, but the players you choose to ignore (the competitive hardcore peeps) will just get super depressed and not enjoy your game anymore.

and I understand not many people are willing to go through so much trouble just for some video game prestige, but for some people, myself included, it was a way to escape reality and show off how good you really are if you put your mind to it. i mean, that’s why most of us play right? to escape reality and have fun. end result was, billions of Gil, and the knowledge of making my own rotations. (I lost my passion for crafting in this game due to the unnecessary easy difficulty in everything. but when I did have passion, I went at it hard!) like I said, I’m glad you and others enjoy crafting now, but what I think JoJoya is trying to say is that for most people, not including you it seems, is that....if you didn’t enjoy crafting then, you won’t stick with it for long now.

Maybe doing all of that work was never the intention in the first place?

Maybe that was going way beyond what Yoshi-P wanted for the game?

Think about it: Most of FFXIV is more casual except for some niche content that was added because people begged for it, and such content is purely optional and set aside for them: Savage. Ultimate. Special clubhouse content set aside purely for the hardcores and only because they kept begging for its inclusion.

But then you look at Pre-5.1 crafting, esp back during HW and you saw that the entire section of crafting was way too difficult. It took 10x more work to level one crafting class than it did multiple adventurer classes. The barrier to entry was sky-high, and took all kinds of mindless farming. It was rather disproportionate, and worst of all, crafting was required for repairs and melding unless you had to pay someone else to do it (they later added an NPC to meld for you but there are limitations to that from what I understand). And of course, players charged out the wazoo from what I remember seeing in adverts for melding "services", wanting tens of K just to push a button and wait 5 seconds.

And again as I said earlier in the thread, having special expert recipes being difficult is fine with me, but making the entirety of crafting a slog grind is not.

As for the expert recipes, well. The point is to stop people from macroing them. You still have to think about the rotation, you still have to think about what you're doing. Yes, people will have rotations all figured out, and scripts for what to do when what pops, but you know what? That's basically what we have when it comes to playing adventurer classes anyhow. DPS rotations, memorizing a boss's attacks and how to react to each one, etc etc.

Seems about right.

[KageTokage]

The only thing I dislike about crafting/gathering being more accessible is that there's been a noticeable increase in the amount of new bot farmers as a side-effect, at least on my side of things.

You'd think there'd be less of them with the process being made less tedious.

[NanaWiloh]

The only thing I dislike about crafting/gathering being more accessible is that there's been a noticeable increase in the amount of new bot farmers as a side-effect, at least on my side of things.

You'd think there'd be less of them with the process being made less tedious.

One would think. But bot farmers think and that in itself is a problem.

[Maeka]

The only thing I dislike about crafting/gathering being more accessible is that there's been a noticeable increase in the amount of new bot farmers as a side-effect, at least on my side of things.

You'd think there'd be less of them with the process being made less tedious.

No matter what, people will bot.

It's just a sad reality. You could add a "Push this for levelup" button, and some people would bot even that because they couldn't be asked to do it 80 times.

We shouldn't use botting as a metric for whether or not a system is any good, to be honest.