Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[Shiroe]

your list doesnt show much yet (missing class logs and Sam is way higher in reality than displayed there.., just less skilled dunno how to use the new Sam rotation yet / fully)

my list just shows how Smn is dominating the top dps in Hades Ex atm.., which Smn probably shouldnt dominate (neither should Mnk)

[ForteNightshade]

your list doesnt show much yet (missing class logs and Sam is way higher in reality than displayed there.., just less skilled dunno how to use the new Sam rotation yet / fully)

my list just shows how Smn is dominating the top dps in Hades Ex atm.., which Smn probably shouldnt dominate (neither should Mnk)

You're not reading people's responses. What you're linking isn't being properly calculated. Bard, for example, is supposedly averaging 13,150 rdps despite the highest ranked parse being 13,100. That's statistically impossible.

The statistics category is ignoring the vast majority of reports—something which is currently being worked on. Therefore, none of this is remotely accurate.

[HyoMinPark]

your list doesnt show much yet (missing class logs and Sam is way higher in reality than displayed there.., just less skilled dunno how to use the new Sam rotation yet / fully)

my list just shows how Smn is dominating the top dps in Hades Ex atm.., which Smn probably shouldnt dominate (neither should Mnk)

I still think that your assessment of these statistics is incorrect. You posted statistics pages for both E3S and E4S displaying a dozen or more parses only for each DPS job in the game (sans DRG, which was the only job above 20 uploads in each page), and attempted to use it to back up your argument that this is where SMN currently stands as opposed to the other DPS jobs. The sample size is not large enough for you to make a conclusion like that, and it’s disingenuous for you to attempt to present your argument with this data.

As for your Hades EX data, I think there’s some issues going on, because none of those logs are appearing on the statistics page and that’s a little odd to me. I know that several logs were blacklisted when uploaded yesterday due to FFLogs failing to calculate raid buffs correctly (e.g., Trick Attack was being calculated at 10% for 15 seconds as opposed to 5% for 15 seconds), and BRD’s Battle Voice was display rDPS contribution values of sub-100 rDPS). Are you certain that the list you’ve posted here doesn’t include some of these logs that were blacklisted by the site for containing incorrect data assessments?

[Nemekh]

I did mention the current sampling would not be sufficient to be conclusive to the degree that would be preferable. In that regard, all that matters is playing the waiting game for more to be uploaded when it comes to SMN. But that's not to say that what's visibly manifesting early should be outright discarded. Yes, the dust needs to settle to see things more clearly. But people should not be surprised should things not change as much.

That all said, something I have always maintained and always will: the website is not gospel. It can and will be wrong, for as long as attribution has to be estimated for DoTs and the impact of synergy. Players need to be especially mindful of the context of the data and ensure the numbers are sane. At least in the case of SMN, when I did my weeklies and looked closer, things weren't as off as say, the current website scenario with ranged.

[plamya]

Holy sambas the memes aren't wrong when they said that summoners are always complaining are they? Even when they are at the top of the food chain right now.

[Ahrijlaken]

Can someone explain to me why Summoner shouldn't be Top DPS in this game ? Do they give group buff like ninja ?

[Nemekh]

Summoner provides a group damage buff in the form of 5% Devotion, yes, in addition to raise. It was more of a selfish job prior to Stormblood, but still had Resurrection and super virus then, while Stormblood Summoner also provided extra party damage through Contagion and Radiant Shield on top of 2% dmg 5% healing/mitigation Devotion. We don't talk about the joke that was 4.0 Devotion.

All jobs should be competitive enough without universal parity in end results, but the global balance shouldn't be such that particular jobs are chosen to be excluded from groups because of the sheer gaps that exist. There will always be a "meta" and it can be argued all comps can clear, but that is a false equivalency which doesn't account for the differing severity. The gaps also do not limit themselves only to damage potential, but even binary cases of having one ability vs not at all.

Holy sambas the memes aren't wrong when they said that summoners are always complaining are they? Even when they are at the top of the food chain right now.

You may call it complaining when ultimately this is caring about the global state of the game. Even if it means speaking out about the job I enjoy and care about most.

[Zerathor]

Can someone explain to me why Summoner shouldn't be Top DPS in this game ? Do they give group buff like ninja ?

Why shouldn't the more mobile black mage with raise in their kit as well as aetherpact to boost group dps do more damage than jobs dedicated solely to personal damage with zero unique group utility you ask?

[Myon88]

I would personally consider the apparent generous tuning of smn to be fair reparations for the absolute butchering of the job's gameplay and skill ceiling from Stormblood. And I say 'apparent' because many 3rd party tools are still recovering from the transition to 5.1.

Consider the fact that without aetherflow to allow for flexibility in trance activations, there is very little opportunistic play left in the toolkit. For the most part, you are just forced to use all your trances on cooldown over and over and just hope the parts of the fight they overlap are favourable to them. When a black mage is allowed to do things like bank xenoglossy in downtime and use it judiciously when the boss returns, their output increases relative to their full uptime tuning. In contrast, when a summoner is forced to use their trances inefficiently due to poor overlap with fight mechanics, their dps 'in practice' will fall below their dps in theory.

In the future, more fights may come that clash particularly badly with default trance timings. There are many examples in current fights already, and ultimate with its sheer mechanic density is sure to provide more examples. It's not a bad thing to give the job an extra bump to build in a small buffer, so that the job's intended output is preserved even in those situations. If agency was still in the hands of the player, I would be confident that summoners would have the ability to punch above their weight no matter their tuning. Alas, not all jobs are as well designed as black mage, so in lieu of well designed rotations I'm happy to accept some artificial propping up - it achieves the same result in the end.

I gotta say though, summoner players are truly noble, have you ever heard of someone calling for nerfs to their own job? I certainly didn't see any black mages sticking up for their fellow casters when summoners and red mages were down. Just a lot of gloating over their guaranteed raid spot. Now that the tables are turned they are back to whining that they might have to play a different job for progression - you know, the thing you do for maybe 2 or 3 weeks out of the entire year.

[Zerathor]

I would personally consider the apparent generous tuning of smn to be fair reparations for the absolute butchering of the job's gameplay and skill ceiling from Stormblood. And I say 'apparent' because many 3rd party tools are still recovering from the transition to 5.1.

Consider the fact that without aetherflow to allow for flexibility in trance activations, there is very little opportunistic play left in the toolkit. For the most part, you are just forced to use all your trances on cooldown over and over and just hope the parts of the fight they overlap are favourable to them. When a black mage is allowed to do things like bank xenoglossy in downtime and use it judiciously when the boss returns, their output increases relative to their full uptime tuning. In contrast, when a summoner is forced to use their trances inefficiently due to poor overlap with fight mechanics, their dps 'in practice' will fall below their dps in theory.

In the future, more fights may come that clash particularly badly with default trance timings. There are many examples in current fights already, and ultimate with its sheer mechanic density is sure to provide more examples. It's not a bad thing to give the job an extra bump to build in a small buffer, so that the job's intended output is preserved even in those situations.

I gotta say, summoner players are truly noble though, have you ever heard of someone calling for nerfs to their own job? I certainly didn't see any black mages sticking up for their fellow casters when summoners and red mages were down. Just a lot of gloating over their guaranteed raid spot. Now that the tables are turned they are back to whining that they might have to play a different job for progression - you know, the thing you do for maybe 2 or 3 weeks out of the entire year.

I don't believe Nemekh is every summoner in this game. Because I vastly remember every other smn having zero issues at all with their standings over other casters during ucob and uwu, or the majority of the last expansion in general. 'Nobel' lol... that's a joke

Also reparations? If we wanted to call for reparations, their position for the first tier of eden was for being gods prior.

Sit down and try to think before speaking.