Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[SaberMaxwell]

When did you get your clear? Is it within the patch they come out? If you clear it in later patch (even just .1 patch above) dps check get lamer, either that or your group good good dps or my group is not as good as i though (i remember 0.2% so many time...)

I'm going to echo the answer you got. I did UWU on content and only got to do UCoB much later due to grouping reasons (look up Sora Maxwell of Faerie, too lazy to post links from phone), but the design goal of Ultimate is not a DPS fest, it's a mechanical one, with the biggest exceptions being final phase on both fights so far.

There are moments in both Ultimates where deaths are virtually unrecoverable; a death in Nael has the potential to (pardon the pun) snowball from ice killing people for instance. There are plenty more areas where a caster raise can be the difference between making it through the phase or wiping. This is why I advocate for caster raise removal or homogenization: I agree with Phenomena, it's a super powerful tool to have when the occasion calls for it. It can't be quantified, and because of that we'll probably continue seeing BLM either being miles above it's caster peers or ignored outright. Either Black Mage should get a raise, completely unfettered just like it's peers, no fuss and no silly gimmick, or casters should lose it altogether.

[Akiudo]

I'm going to echo the answer you got. I did UWU on content and only got to do UCoB much later due to grouping reasons (look up Sora Maxwell of Faerie, too lazy to post links from phone), but the design goal of Ultimate is not a DPS fest, it's a mechanical one, with the biggest exceptions being final phase on both fights so far.

There are moments in both Ultimates where deaths are virtually unrecoverable; a death in Nael has the potential to (pardon the pun) snowball from ice killing people for instance. There are plenty more areas where a caster raise can be the difference between making it through the phase or wiping. This is why I advocate for caster raise removal or homogenization: I agree with Phenomena, it's a super powerful tool to have when the occasion calls for it. It can't be quantified, and because of that we'll probably continue seeing BLM either being miles above it's caster peers or ignored outright. Either Black Mage should get a raise, completely unfettered just like it's peers, no fuss and no silly gimmick, or casters should lose it altogether.

there would have to be at least some gimmick, otherwise we would get "unlimited mana mage triple cast insta rezz" , like if you think redmage rezz is op that one would teach the world what op really is.

but thats the other thing, redmage and smn rezz aren't balanced against each other even, so either remove it completly or give all of them a gimmick (as redmage at the moment allready got a "gimmick" so to speak), like i dunno, instant+free but with cooldown for redmage, 2x mana cost for summoner but aside from that as is and for blm make it take off 1 bar of polyglot , just an example here but either they would all need some kind of advantage/drawback or even if you gave blm rezz and simple said "could not be triple cast'" the rezz capabilitys between the 3 would be unbalanced by default as blm doesn't care at least mana wise and redmage still has dual cast whereas smn would than be inferior to both.

[SaberMaxwell]

Using triplecast raise would cost BLM nearly 2000 potency in opportunity costs, if not more considering all future fire 4s and despairs they'd miss doing it. That's far and away beyond what dualcast raise (x3) costs RDM. Also using an instant to raise someone means BLM has one less mobility tool for when it counts, which is also something RDM doesn't necessarily need to consider, or at least not to the level of BLM.

[Akiudo]

Using triplecast raise would cost BLM nearly 2000 potency in opportunity costs, if not more considering all future fire 4s and despairs they'd miss doing it. That's far and away beyond what dualcast raise (x3) costs RDM. Also using an instant to raise someone means BLM has one less mobility tool for when it counts, which is also something RDM doesn't necessarily need to consider, or at least not to the level of BLM.

take a look at redmages damage, the dps difference between redmage and blackmage, THAT is the opportunity cost the redmage currently pays no matter if the rezz is needed or unneeded, the value to rezz 3 or even 4 times in a row if you add swiftcast without completly bottoming out its mana blows away anything the redmage can do, and the redmage pays around 1000 dps for that right now no matter if its needed or unneeded, the blm would only pay in case it is a necessity, if you think the oppurtunity cost of using triple cast to do so is so high you vastly underestimate the value of quickly rezzing people (even if their damage as a class were around the same in such a situation this is only talking "how usefull would it be to rezz 3-4 people nearly instantly"). Also theres a big difference in rezzing 3 people in 5 seconds (0-2,5-5) or doing so in 12,5 (2,5-7,5-12,5), not to mention the fact that rezzing 3 times in a row would completly floor the redmages mana.


Also that completly ignores that i said all three should have some sort of condition on their rezz capability for the simple fact that as long as its pure "how much mana does it cost one and does this even effect the class"+"how fast can they do it" we would still end up with a "good rezz/bad rezz" situation as we have right now with smn/rdm and that issue would stay even if blackmage got a rezz, in fact if you simply slap on a rezz on blackmage it would only get worse

[SaberMaxwell]

If all three had a raise, all three would then have similar damage capability, that's not in question. Black Mage loses a lot more than Red Mage let gcd spent not casting, that's just the nature of the job as it is right now. Also recall I mained Red Mage through both Ultimates and four Savage tiers, I'm not underestimating anything, I'm just pointing out that for a Black Mage to specifically triplecast raise it's going to cost it a lot in opportunity costs.

Let's say we made it eat a polyglot. Then it would cost BLM the potency of a Fire 4 + the potency of Xenoglossy for a single raise. That's over 1,000 potency for a single raise not even including the swiftcast needed for mobility and weaving anyway. That's prohibitively expensive compared to RDM paying in the neighborhood of 400 potency for a dualcast raise.

It's not as simple as saying "But triplecast raise and umbral ice!" There's a lot more to it than that. The high costs of raising unique to BLM would be the potency they dump and the mobility they sacrifice to do it, whereas for RDM it would be a sensitive Mana economy and for SMN it would be their only swiftcast. No gimmick beyond that is needed.

[Akiudo]

It's not as simple as saying "But triplecast raise and umbral ice!" There's a lot more to it than that. The high costs of raising unique to BLM would be the potency they dump and the mobility they sacrifice to do it, whereas for RDM it would be a sensitive Mana economy and for SMN it would be their only swiftcast. No gimmick beyond that is needed.

the part i underlined righ now works out so great that when smn was not as broken as it is now redmage was around 300 dps below summoner and people still argued redmage was way better than smn because it could chain rezz.
Also again yes the opportunity cost for a blackmage would be great, but if that could get up 4 people in a row (if you really think there is no gimmick needed, sacrificing triple cast+potentially swiftcast is enough) it would be worth every bit of it, it isn't the question of "what does it cost the blackmage if he does it" the question is simply "what does it offer the group if the blackmage does it" because if it is in fact not needed the blackmage would in fact not do it , thereby it would cost him literally nothing at this point.

[SaberMaxwell]

It absolutely is a question of "what does it cost the black Mage to do this?" You're asking for a Black Mage to specifically be in umbral ice and at the precise part of the minute both swift and triple are up, both cool downs which BLM absolutely uses on cool down for dps gains, to raise four people in a row. The Black Mage is either going to passively sac it's DPS "just in case," or it's not and people will most likely drop like flies while triple and swift are on cool down.

Summoner was often seen as the stronger caster than red mage throughout the latter's life due to greater mobility (ruin 2 was only 20 potency loss), vastly superior DPS (it surpassed or rivalled black Mage throughout StB and is apparently back up to par now), and the opportunity cost for it's raise was much lower (120 potency for the Lost gcd vs RDMs 310 flat potency at the time). As soon as bleeding edge ended RDM wasn't needed anymore, Summoner was that much stronger. Chain raise is a very, very niche thing and often by the time it's needed you're not clearing anyway; see Titan Savage week 1 where RDM's "key feature" was useless because a single death basically locked you out of a kill that run.

[Akiudo]

It absolutely is a question of "what does it cost the black Mage to do this?" You're asking for a Black Mage to specifically be in umbral ice and at the precise part of the minute both swift and triple are up, both cool downs which BLM absolutely uses on cool down for dps gains, to raise four people in a row. The Black Mage is either going to passively sac it's DPS "just in case," or it's not and people will most likely drop like flies while triple and swift are on cool down.

Summoner was often seen as the stronger caster than red mage throughout the latter's life due to greater mobility (ruin 2 was only 20 potency loss), vastly superior DPS (it surpassed or rivalled black Mage throughout StB and is apparently back up to par now), and the opportunity cost for it's raise was much lower (120 potency for the Lost gcd vs RDMs 310 flat potency at the time). As soon as bleeding edge ended RDM wasn't needed anymore, Summoner was that much stronger. Chain raise is a very, very niche thing and often by the time it's needed you're not clearing anyway; see Titan Savage week 1 where RDM's "key feature" was useless because a single death basically locked you out of a kill that run.

and people still even now argue they will take redmage for ultimate progression before switching to smn or blackmage once they come close to enrage, and yes smn was often seen as superior, allways as soon as its damage got close to the damage of blm, because at this point it was a more mobile blackmage with a rezz, instead of a rezz bot like the redmage which was exactly my point. giving blackmage a rezz and getting redmage up there (or even blm and summoner down to redmage/let them meet anywhere in the middle) would do literally NOTHING to change the imbalance between redmage and summoner, it would just throw in blackmage somewhere in the middle of it.

either redmage stays weaker than the other 2, in that case it stays the rezz bot for progress or it gets up to their level and everyone will complain that redmage is as strong as Summoner/blackmage while it can chain rezz. you're focusing way to much on what i said about blackmage specifically, even though at its core what i said was "the current rezz "balance" between redmage and smn works out badly as is, simply slapping a rez on blackmage would only make it worse" i flat out stated that "do x for redmage, y for smn and z for blackmage" was just an example, but they do either need different kinds of opportunity costs tacked onto their rezz or giving rezz to blackmage does absolutely nothing to change the general balance problems we got with rezz right now and most likely will only make it worse.

[AbelArchaniEA]

Don't get me wrong, Devotion is one of the weaker synergy buffs of the ones available, however, it's only that weak in a party that poorly uses it. Devotion's higher in a reasonable synergy comp with solid play.

The heal's definitely not laughable and is something healers can account for when optimising. But it's not something we will play around healers for. FBT happens when it needs to happen, not when healers want EF.

Says the self-proclaimed “expert”

[Madoka]

Don't get me wrong, Devotion is one of the weaker synergy buffs of the ones available, however, it's only that weak in a party that poorly uses it. Devotion's higher in a reasonable synergy comp with solid play.

The heal's definitely not laughable and is something healers can account for when optimising. But it's not something we will play around healers for. FBT happens when it needs to happen, not when healers want EF.

Honestly I'm taking the 200-250 from top smn numbers. Where their rdps and adps differences are only like 200 and their parties probably know what devotion actually looks like on the buff bar. My personal rdps and adps differences are usually maybe 100 and I know my team doesn't try and take advantage of it at all, i just do my best to line it up with trick so that we can do more damage.

EF is 7 ticks of about 2500-3000HP. It can be helpful if it comes up during raidwides but honestly I don't see many healers take it into consideration when healing when it's total healing done is the same as if they slap rapture or Assize or something and the moments it can be clutch in are probably also wipe situations. It's just a regen for about 20k hp every 2 minutes and most smns seem to have 80% or higher overheal amounts in any fight so even when we pop it during raidwides the healers are probably popping some other big boy stuff to top everyone off in 1-2 casts to go back to doing damage.

So again it's majorly about the raise.