Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[Kabooa]

I would generally avoid using Trials. They're designed first and foremost for presentation.

[Shiroe]

truthfully, I prefer looking at the 99% or max%, since those are the one we actually want to achieve and seem possible when trying to optimise..

but still believe Blm is overall a tick to low compared to Smn..

but its low as Smn or Sam where in 5.0.., just a a bit (unless you do speedkills at 99, Smn will be the Dps choice with additional Rez and Utility)

[Shiroe]

I would generally avoid using Trials. They're designed first and foremost for presentation.

Hades Ex is an example of how fights are getting more more (or longet) heavy movements.., same goes a bit for some new 24 man.. and expect the trend to continue in Ultimate and next savage

[HyperiusUltima]

After some general thought, I'm starting to wonder SMN's impact on the meta given their buffs. Even if this is merely the first two weeks of 5.1, I can already see potential Dual Caster, Single Ranged, Single Melee comps given how the data's laid out on the Site That Shall Not Be Named. This potentially can lead to MNK and SAM having to fight for a spot since SMN's rDPS and aDPS are up there to compete with even the Melee. If anything, SE needs to check out their data points and make sure SMN isn't toppling over DRG or MNK in terms of damage and rDPS, since that's literally where we're sitting at right now in terms of what SMN can bring.

Note: Who remembers 4.1? Because this feels like it.

[Akiudo]

After some general thought, I'm starting to wonder SMN's impact on the meta given their buffs. Even if this is merely the first two weeks of 5.1, I can already see potential Dual Caster, Single Ranged, Single Melee comps given how the data's laid out on the Site That Shall Not Be Named. This potentially can lead to MNK and SAM having to fight for a spot since SMN's rDPS and aDPS are up there to compete with even the Melee. If anything, SE needs to check out their data points and make sure SMN isn't toppling over DRG or MNK in terms of damage and rDPS, since that's literally where we're sitting at right now in terms of what SMN can bring.

Note: Who remembers 4.1? Because this feels like it.

considering the physical ranged are so far below every other class even with the 1% buff you would be better of taking a second melee compared to a single physical ranged if you allready got 2 casters i fail to see why you would think melees are the one in danger of losing a spot, also having 1 melee spot as a given (for the 1% buff which is actually useful as their dps is right up their aswell as melee lb) 3 other melee classes potentially having to actually fight for a spot with a second caster ? that thought really is horrific, absolutely unrealistic but having melees actually compete for the last slot (after they got the mandatory safe first spot every dps type should have and which ranged are in a lot more realistic position to lose to double caster) is indeed a terrible thought

[HyperiusUltima]

considering the physical ranged are so far below every other class even with the 1% buff you would be better of taking a second melee compared to a single physical ranged if you allready got 2 casters i fail to see why you would think melees are the one in danger of losing a spot, also having 1 melee spot as a given (for the 1% buff which is actually useful as their dps is right up their aswell as melee lb) 3 other melee classes potentially having to actually fight for a spot with a second caster ? that thought really is horrific, absolutely unrealistic but having melees actually compete for the last slot (after they got the mandatory safe first spot every dps type should have and which ranged are in a lot more realistic position to lose to double caster) is indeed a terrible thought

You misunderstand that in a composition, Physical Ranged are the only DPS that can reduce raid-wide damage by 10%, compared to the likes of Feint and Addle which only affect enemy stats(provides circa 6-7% Damage Type Mitigation). On top of that, also providing buffs in the case of BRD/DNC, or outputting raw damage as MCH. Even then, you want at least one to alleviate healers so they can DPS more. if you replace that with SMN, you're basically trading off that mitigation and buffs for Devotion, which is just a 5% Damage Buff for the raid. It may sound rather out of place at first, but the data speaks for itself. If SE makes any small changes come 4.11 or 4.15, we'll see what they do to fix the situation.

[Akiudo]

You misunderstand that in a composition, Physical Ranged are the only DPS that can reduce raid-wide damage by 10%, compared to the likes of Feint and Addle which only affect enemy stats(provides circa 6-7% Damage Type Mitigation). On top of that, also providing buffs in the case of BRD/DNC, or outputting raw damage as MCH. Even then, you want at least one to alleviate healers so they can DPS more. if you replace that with SMN, you're basically trading off that mitigation and buffs for Devotion, which is just a 5% Damage Buff for the raid. It may sound rather out of place at first, but the data speaks for itself. If SE makes any small changes come 4.11 or 4.15, we'll see what they do to fix the situation.

firstly i'm unsure why you think addle/feint are 6-7% damage reduction , a 10% mainstat reduction should actually come out as a 10% damage reduction , also they are on a shorter cooldown and with 2 melee/2 caster you got 2 off both, if this would not be enough than the situation before the patch with the even longer cooldown on troubadour/samba should have been basically impossible for groups to handle, also if you really think they offer enough value for this much of a dps discreptancy than why not go double physical ranged ? i mean they can take turns with their damage reduction, saves the healers extra work.

also, this seems to be a hard concept for people as it gets said like 10 times a day per any given thread but "providing buffs" (damage buffs that is) is NOT a bonus point for a class, bard and dancer damage sucks as after the buffs they provide are accounted for, it matters jack if a class is 1000 dps personal below an alternate class or 3000 dps personal below but buffing the group for 2000 dps, both leave you with 1000 dps less than if you just took another class so why bringt it up ?

you say if you give up bard/dnc you trade damage buffs (again, pretty unsure were you got your numbers on the mitigation part, but open to take a math lesson from some theorycraft wizard) for devotion which is a worse damage buff but that argument is simply wrong, like yes you do as you say, but what does it matter ? summoner isn't 1000 dps above bard and buffs the group for 500 while bard buffs the group for 1200, summoner is 2000 above bard and than buffs the group for 500 while bard buffs the group for 1000 leaving it with a 1500 dps deficiency

edit: and to this

The Raise is just there in case somebody gets tanked in progression, but I'm talking about this in a Clear raid scenario.

you really think the phys ranged dmg mitigation is totally needed after progression ? is it nice to have ? totally, but so is a rezz not done by a healer if something goes wrong, if you really believe something like troubadour is necessary to do a weekly kill or even saves a lot of healing you vastly underestimate the damage reduction capabilitys of other classes

[Shiroe]

Smn also has "ever lasting flight", when Phönix is out... a healing buff on nearby members (HOT effect)

- dps buff, aetherpac
- healunf buff, ELF
- rez

Smn is like a Mnk somehow, dps buff + healing utility (+ rez).

[HyperiusUltima]

Smn also has "ever lasting flight", when Phönix is out... a healing buff on nearby members (HOT effect)

- dps buff, aetherpac
- healunf buff, ELF
- rez

Smn is like a Mnk somehow, dps buff + healing utility (+ rez).

The healing utility isn't necessarily enough to be worth taking over a Ranged DPS because it's not going to reduce incoming damage(especially since heal ticks from Flight aren't as HoT as people think they are) and SMN is going to be using Phoenix for burst phases anyway. The comparison to MNK is not even close considering MNK has Mantra, is comp dependent for Brotherhood Chakra Generation, and has a truckload of damage to go with it. The Raise is just there in case somebody gets tanked in progression, but I'm talking about this in a Clear raid scenario.

[Shurrikhan]

The healing utility isn't necessarily enough to be worth taking over a Ranged DPS because it's not going to reduce incoming damage(especially since heal ticks from Flight aren't as HoT as people think they are) and SMN is going to be using Phoenix for burst phases anyway. The comparison to MNK is not even close considering MNK has Mantra.

Everlasting Flight is 700 potency, or two Vercures each as AoEs. It's largely pointless since it really can't be timed to damage in any way due to SMN's strict macrorotations, but it will always contribute more healing than Mantra now that the latter has been reduced to half and it takes less than 2k AoE potency to fully heal through whatever raid damage is likely to be present over Mantra's duration (leaving Mantra at, at best, some 200 potency of healing).

Similarly, Troubadour/Tactician/Samba will indirectly deal between 0 and some 400 potency of healing because of the healing (rarely) GCD saved with a mere 10% mitigation. If even a third of its ticks manage not to merely overheal, Everlasting Flight is generally stronger than either.