Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.1

Originally Posted by Yasune

There is a minimum amount of text before I can post my thoughts.

In the extra F'lhaminn quest, she mentions Warburton died 20 years ago. Shouldn't it be 15 years ago? Did Koji mess up, or did they suddenly jump us ahead five years?

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It's a bit tricky since it happened in 1.0, but in "present" 1.0, Warburton has been dead for 15 years. When we first meet him and Ascilia in the story, its through a flashback via the echo, which takes 15 years prior to the start of 1.0. Add those 15 years to the 5 that has passed since the Calamity (1.0 to 2.0 timeline), and you have 20.

It was 10 years ago in 1.0 that Warburton died. Also Minfillia stated after they moved to the Rising stones that some 15 years ago her father died.

Then in the Encyclopedia Eorzea books 1 page 53 it says:
1562 a gobbue breaks free of its arcane fetters during a parade and proceeds to run amok through the streets. Ascilia (minfillia) , one of the spectators, is orphaned at the age of 12 when her father is killed by the rampaging beast..

1572 was the calamity and the events which took place during 1.0

Hades Ex stuff:

The crafting material is a piece of Hades power and it is touching how it tries to invoke a part of him may live on(as in memory form) through it.

Mount is just a whim that Emet-Selch created barely taping into his power to do so.

Suppose we do get to see Lahabrea again in some form, hopefully no more than that he should remain dead like all currently slain ascians.

Well another thing I enjoy for the Nier raid is that it does show us the one thing that we only heard about in Nier Automata and that is...

the full power of 9S when he fully awakens his powers. In nier Automata, 9S was holding back basically 80% of his full power because he is only used for scouting and all 9S units are killed the moment they begin to awaken and/or discover the Truth about Humanity due to how fast they evolve.

This 9S in Nier Raid is one that manage to reach full awakening and achieve access to 100% of his powers.

Imagine what Nier Automata would have played like if we had access to this amount of power playing as 9S.

Also, some people are speculating the Nier Raid may follow one of the Endings for Nier but which ending is unknown.

Though I have a feeling it may be Ending D being the board Ark ending

Originally Posted by Yasune

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I know how the time bubble works, and that's why I see a problem. It should still have been 15 years because of the bubble.

1.0's Echo sequences including the death of Warburton were 10 years prior to 1.0, not 15. It would be 15 in current Eorzea.

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unless they've decided to say 5 more years past I'd report it as a localization error due to the time bubble fact and they have never really mentioned time passing during any of the story.

Only msq here :

The new threat announced by Gaius because of the death of Varis is probably a rival faction leaded by Nera maybe ? Anyway, this call clearly the future opponent of 6.0 with Garlemald + Radz-at-Han as visitable locations.

For the mysterious man in white/red, I have immediately thinked of Asahi (the face). But I think it's an Ascian who hijacked his body. If this is Asahi, why ? This new ascian can maybe have access to the memory of the death corpse. To get closer from Zenos, there is no better choice than the fanboy Asahi.
To continue of this Ascian wanted to hunt Zodiark, my bet is on an Ascian from Hydaelyn side.

For Ardbert, pretty sure, it's a part of Elidibus scheme. Nothing else to add.

Hmm... quite a lot going on! Apologies if some of this has been said, as I've not read the thread at large.

On the new entries -

My guess is that the Ardbert lookalike is Elidibus, and this is on the basis of his dialogue and what Unukalhai says about him. The character's comments, that it is his destiny to see "Our dreams" realised reminds me a lot of the dialogue by Hades during the trial. Then, there is the fact that Elidibus, at the end of 5.0, commented that it is the fate of Warriors of Darkness to be destined as those before them, to meet death at the hands of Warriors of Light... and finally, we have Unukalhai's dialogue about him.

Chapter 3: Sophia:Upon our first meeting, my master spoke thus: I am not the Light's servant, but for the present I must serve. One cannot arbitrate equilibrium if one is not fluid of stance.

Unukalhai: 'Tis well that another world should not share the fate of mine own, but you must be careful─the Ascians will not take well to your intervention.
Unukalhai: Of those who yet remain among their number, Elidibus in particular concerns me greatly. It has ever been his aim to seek equilibrium, even when the means to do so is seemingly at odds with his brethren. I can but wonder to what lengths he might go to account for your actions.

This, to me, might all be implying that Elidibus is taking on the guise of a WoL - he won't need the body, as he can shape a host however he so wishes - to achieve his agenda on the First. This is a lot more promising than some idiotic scheme to summon the self-same Shard WoLs that have proven incompetent at defeating you in the past. Even though Hades fell, Elidibus is one of the few lifeforms who has a genuine chance to fell you. Shard WoLs will be too weak. So my guess is he will avoid direct confrontation for the time being and try ensure the First is put back on the brink of destruction, assured that the chaos on the Source will suffice to ready it for a Calamity.

The other entry is a mystery but my money is on some manner of Ascian or a Warrior of Darkness, like Cyella. Whoever it was must have witnessed the dialogue between Varis, Elidibus and Zenos, because it is at this point that Zenos formulated this new agenda. I've heard quite a few suggestions made, including Unukalhai, but I don't think he makes much sense, because he's still in the Rising Stones, still in a child-like body (this was a full grown Midlander man; it's only "small" next to a giant like Zenos), and has dialogue being updated. It'd require far too much for it to be him, so Occam's Razor would suggest otherwise. My primary guess is an Ascian seeking to make use of Zenos's new found agenda, or a Warrior of Darkness with an appetite for some chaos. I had thought it might be a soul connected in some way to a neutral ancient during the whole Hydaelyn/Zodiark summoning fiasco, but again it requires a lot more legwork to explain than the prior two possibilities.

I don't think this person is a Hydaelyn devotee, either. Leading Zenos to Zodiark will put her at significant risk. Even if this resulted in Zodiark's ultimate destruction, it could just as easily result in hers.

Some have speculated Lahabrea, since his destruction was assumed and never assured, but surely Elidibus would sense this? Unless the Eyes somehow stripped his darkness aspecting/otherwise changed the hue of his soul and resulted in Elidibus being unable to identify it... still, I am sceptical that this is who it is. I'd like to see Lahabrea's ascendant form and always wanted more of him, but I'd also rather they don't keep recycling characters, so kind of on the fence about it.

I get the impression that Zenos doesn't really seem to have much knowledge about how to implement this plan, so I guess it's no surprise he decided not to even use the Empire towards that singular end. This new figure will provide him with that know-how, however this might end for Zenos. I could see Zenos succeeding in hijacking Zodiark if he was summoned with a small amount of aether initially and then gorged himself on more and more to empower him. It may yet be a foolhardy plan that ends with his demise and frees Zodiark. Or others may be right, and it may be some trick he's discovered which does not require him to overpower the Primal, per se... that has scarier implications, as Hydaelyn would be susceptible to much the same and not just from Zenos, but anyone who discovered this ability.

As to the Pureblood being used in that Arch Ultima device, who knows? To me, it appears Varis may have objected to such projects in the past, but with the Rejoining as a new agenda and goal for the Empire, as perceived by him as necessary to re-unite the world and drive back the Ascian threat (assuming he was being genuine in the tent scene speech), maybe he thought why waste all the research Castrum Abania yielded? Especially if this was some Populares prisoner of war. Perhaps Elidibus was emphatic on making use of this research to further the Garlean war machine and left little choice in it. After all, he was convinced to use the Black Rose to limit Garlean casualties. I can only hope we get more insight into Varis's state of mind later on. I liked him as a character and consider his death to have been too early, but with confirmation that Zenos will not even use the Empire in his pursuit of Zodiark, a civil war looms. This, I think, given Krile's comments about the risk a civil war poses to the provinces (and Garlemald itself, I'll add, as most Garleans are oblivious to what's really going on behind the scenes and are hostage to grand schemes), gives me some hope that we'll eventually venture into Ilsabard, to diffuse the situation. So I'm glad, in a way, that Zenos has fled his throne. I'm intrigued as to whether this "Lord Nerva" will play a big part in the future or if it's just a name being tossed in. As much as I enjoy the Ascians and Zenos, I think it'd be nice to see some more grounded politics in the Empire come back to the forefront for a future expansion, and perhaps this will be Gaius's destiny in the story - to restore order to his homeland. We also have this mysterious device missing from the capital - I wonder what it is. Are they finally going to put Construct 7 to use? Would Gaius know about it, e.g. via reports he's receiving from friendly eyes on the ground? Is it something else? Black Rose related, even though its production facilities are gone? Eager to see.

I enjoyed the Estinien/Gaius RP scenes, but as usual, I wish they'd elaborate a bit more on what triggered the overt aspecting to Darkness in Zenos, as well as his newfound ability to teleport like an Ascian. I guess this will be revealed later.

On the issue of the soul -

I have to admit, I'm finding it harder to see why an Ascian would even require a host. Given that Pixies can just coalesce aether around their soul, and given that the Scions seem to have done pretty much this on the First, why not just do that? Emet-Selch's comments about being able to shape a host as he pleases suggest they already do something like this.Traversing the Rift does not require it, either. Perhaps it's just more efficient to hijack a body and poses less risk to their "incorporeal aether"? That may be it. This is something else I'd like more info on.

It's intriguing that tempering may just be an over-aspecting to a certain element of aether... but it does raise questions. They're using this to explain the handicapped state Halric and the others were in, with respect to Sin Eater corruption. Alisaie suspects this could be applied to Ga Bu. The problem I have with this is that the state of Sin Eaters and their victims was taken to be due to Light's polarity to passivity. Of course, she may be wrong about it, and it could be unique to the Light, but if this is the general effect of tempering, are Voidsent not tempered in a sense, too? Yet why are they so different to all the other tempered? They may be twisted but they still have their own personalities and goals, as well as agency, very much unlike Sin Eaters. You could explain this by recourse to Darkness being a very active energy/state, and again, Alisaie may be wrong about this. We've no data on a world immersed in e.g. Earth to confirm, but I do hope they tread carefully here and come up with a suitable explanation.

At the same time, it gives me some hope that they will have this "tempering" function differently on higher beings like the Ascians, and I suppose the ancients at large, e.g. in the case of Hydaelyn's summoners. I like the Ascian rationale where it currently sits; if it's just reduced to slavish devotion because Zodiark tempered them, I'll be disappointed, as it'd strip away their agency and reduce it to "supposedly bad god told me to."

On Nier and the Hades fight -

Pretty intrigued to see how they're going to tie this into FFXIV lore. I enjoyed the fights and scenery, even though I am not familiar with Nier: Automata. I like the collection system they added in as this allows us to explore the raids in greater depth and hope they do it for more raids.


Enjoyed the Hades fight but I wish they'd have gone a bit further and added more of the signature mechanics from the fallen Overlords, and more to do in the final phase, including making more use of the borrowed Amaurot dungeon platform. It's a lot closer to how I thought the canon version of this fight ought to have played out - guess I'll just pretend it was the canon one, as I do for many extreme fights!

Just some general thoughts -

I'm still a bit dissatisfied as to how different (or not) the First is to the Source - geographically, it is of course somewhat different, in part due to the effect the Calamities have had on the Source.

However, when we consider that 1) these worlds have their own evolutionary history; 2) time flows differently between the worlds and 3) their aetheric density is much lower than the seven-times rejoined Source's (aether richness is something Koji made a point of when discussing Miqo'te migratory activity), why is it so similar in terms of the races, the language, the architecture, the culture and even one of the zones? I'd expect starkly more differentiation, particularly in terms of the major races inhabiting it. Yet there's virtually none and they're split along similar lines to those on the Source... convenient narrative device, but it's a huge missed opportunity.

I'm also not convinced that the time travel aspect is really even necessary; yes, it adds a sense of urgency to the plot, which I suspect is its main purpose, but it also comes with a lot of potential issues (e.g. the carving out of a new block in time-space for the future G'raha came from), and is not the only narrative device which can serve such a goal. If it ends up being the case that the future was always going to be okay... I like that even less. These aren't huge issues and don't spoil my enjoyment of the plot, but I do wish they were handled differently. Having carbon copies of the Crystal Tower across all worlds from ancient times, and Minfilia already on the First, may have sufficed in and of themselves as starting points for going there and getting stuck. We also have a soul expert there as things stand. It'd be a different story, of course, and I think the storytelling aspect is top notch, but I'd have liked a cleaner approach to this all from a lore perspective.

Not specific to this patch...

Based on Hades's short story, I'm beginning to wonder if what befell Amaurot was not perhaps due to the Ancients encountering something which they deemed was not meant to be: souls attaching to their creations. Their expectation appears to have been that souls would go to the Underworld, and remain there, and only ever attach to beings born according to the laws of nature, which is an allusion to the cycle of life. What if, then, some of these souls began feeling anguish and resentment at being "trapped" in this Underworld and sought release through this method?

Certainly, Hades could probably ensure they were returned for good to it, but what if, outside of Amaurot, the means used to effect such a return were less perfect? You have anguished souls, perhaps with sufficient knowledge/agency to turn themselves into a weapon emitting a frequency of sound set at the right level to "hack" into the Ancients' creation powers by triggering a fear that led to them losing their usually tight grip over them.

This would explain the origins of the monstrosity. Part of why Zodiark may have been summoned could then have been to act as a soul cage, regulating the process, and ensure this did not recur. We still don't really have a clear understanding of why the 14th member of the Convocation left, before he was even summoned; Hydaelyn's summoning appears to have been triggered as a result of disagreement over the final stage of sacrifice. So there's some gaps here that lend themselves to speculation.

Darkness appears to have been chosen as His element to revive the world. I had originally speculated that a change in the Convocation may have resulted from aspecting to Darkness but this seems wrong - Darkness is not evil, per se, but the result of a confluence of elements in an active state, as I understand it. Their quasi-divine identities were held even before Zodiark came to be. Hades was a mighty sorcerer and had an affinity to the Underworld even before the change to the Convocation - men and gods were as one in this age.

Lastly, I've remarked before that I think the Twelve are a distillation, carried through the collective memory, of the Convocation. I don't think numerical equivalence is even required. Haziness of memory alone could account for a difference here, but another possibility is that not all offices were occupied with a member of such memorable eminence. Thus, twelve survive in memory. We already see some parallels between Hades and Nald'thal. Assuming they keep with the Gods of Olympus theme for the Convocation, it is worth noting there were arguably 14 such gods, with Hestia leaving and Dionysus entering their ranks later on.

As to Sharlayan and its similarities to Amaurot, I wonder if the ruins of Amaurot were once where Sharlayan now is. The Source is different to the First in some ways due to the Calamities. Norvrandt's map implies Tempest is off the coast of Kholusia. What if it was once like this on the Source as well, but these ruins since moved to where Sharlayan is, triggering some memory in its founders of the utopia that once was?