Revelations from Patch 5.1

**KageTokage** · 11-05-2019 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Regarding Gaius,

What do you think the weapon he said was missing from the palace is? I'm hoping it's related to Tartarus and the ending scene of Ivalice with Gabranth.

I can't think of what else it could be.

It does make me wonder who's behind it though because it's not Zenos obviously (Though it wouldn't surprise me if it's another Ascian scheme).

**RyuDragnier** · 11-06-2019 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Alleo

About your points on tempering

I am also not really sure if tempering is the same as being affected by Light. It makes sense that too much Light can be changed back by starting the aether again since Light just simply stops the flow and just like with Eden you need something to start it again.

Light cant be the reason imo tempering happens. None of the tempered people we see behave like the people soon turning into sin eaters. A lot of the tempered people are active while those affected by Light are barely even able to move. Just look at Zodiark and him being seemingly Darkness. Why should he temper by using Light? Also over all the time unlike the people with Light they did not turn into outright mindless monsters. Heck only those that get too much tempered turn into strange beings, most of the others are still the same just with the believe to serve their new master.

So either the other elementals like water and fire can do the same thing too or all of those that temper somehow also use Light but unlike on the first people wont just turn into nasty monsters over time...which kinda would point against Light being the one that does it..

I wonder if maybe they just brought that up and later when Alisaie tries it out on the source they will find out that its not the same. Or maybe they find out that Ga Bu is the only that can be saved that way because he is a special case.

About that...

I believe Tempering is actually in fact Aetherical Corruption, with their aether being corrupted due to an element throwing off the natural aetherical balance their body has. In the case of Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda, it would make sense if their tempered have had their aetherical balance thrown too much towards Fire, Earth, and Wind respectively. Meaning just like with those corrupted by the Light and nearing Sin Eater transformation, they've been corrupted by a specific element, albeit not to the degree of transforming into a minion. We've seen moments of transformation due to aether corruption however, some of which besides the Sin Eaters being the Heretics turning into dragons in ARR and HW. Aetherical corruption may in fact be the cause of tempering, and now knowing that strengthening the other elements may in fact fix the problem, it could also lead to fixing the tempered by fixing their corrupted Aether.

This could also explain why Ysayle could turn into Shiva while still staying in control, as those with the Echo have already been blessed by Hydaelyn, and thus have quite a bit of tolerance to aether corruption. However, as shown by the bad future with the WoL's death by their Aether loss and the near Sin Eater transformation at the end of ShB, there IS a limit to this protection.

**WrenElessedil** · 11-07-2019 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by EdwinLi

So anyone else want to talk about how now we have a potential...

Cure for Primal Tempering

...with this MSQ?

If this is the case then imaging what may happen if this does succeed and what it may mean for Elidibus since we know he is under Zodiark's Tempering and what his personality maybe without its influence.

This was the most interesting part of the 5.1 MSQ to me and what my mind immediately jumped to when they brought that subject up. I definitely believe something like this may happen, and it would make a ton of sense for our characters to pursue it considering Elidibus could be instrumental in beating Zodiark.

**Kuroka** · 11-07-2019 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

About that...

I believe Tempering is actually in fact Aetherical Corruption, with their aether being corrupted due to an element throwing off the natural aetherical balance their body has. In the case of Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda, it would make sense if their tempered have had their aetherical balance thrown too much towards Fire, Earth, and Wind respectively. Meaning just like with those corrupted by the Light and nearing Sin Eater transformation, they've been corrupted by a specific element, albeit not to the degree of transforming into a minion. We've seen moments of transformation due to aether corruption however, some of which besides the Sin Eaters being the Heretics turning into dragons in ARR and HW. Aetherical corruption may in fact be the cause of tempering, and now knowing that strengthening the other elements may in fact fix the problem, it could also lead to fixing the tempered by fixing their corrupted Aether.

This could also explain why Ysayle could turn into Shiva while still staying in control, as those with the Echo have already been blessed by Hydaelyn, and thus have quite a bit of tolerance to aether corruption. However, as shown by the bad future with the WoL's death by their Aether loss and the near Sin Eater transformation at the end of ShB, there IS a limit to this protection.

I might add, we saw how Leviatan turned ppl into monsters on sastasha hard... if we look a that now it actually makes sence, as they can corrupt ppl to the point they transform, much like ppl turn into voidsent or sineaters.

**EdwinLi** · 11-07-2019 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Alleo

About Halric:

About your points on tempering

I am also not really sure if tempering is the same as being affected by Light. It makes sense that too much Light can be changed back by starting the aether again since Light just simply stops the flow and just like with Eden you need something to start it again.

Light cant be the reason imo tempering happens. None of the tempered people we see behave like the people soon turning into sin eaters. A lot of the tempered people are active while those affected by Light are barely even able to move. Just look at Zodiark and him being seemingly Darkness. Why should he temper by using Light? Also over all the time unlike the people with Light they did not turn into outright mindless monsters. Heck only those that get too much tempered turn into strange beings, most of the others are still the same just with the believe to serve their new master.

So either the other elementals like water and fire can do the same thing too or all of those that temper somehow also use Light but unlike on the first people wont just turn into nasty monsters over time...which kinda would point against Light being the one that does it..

I wonder if maybe they just brought that up and later when Alisaie tries it out on the source they will find out that its not the same. Or maybe they find out that Ga Bu is the only that can be saved that way because he is a special case.

It is explained in that cutscene that Tempering requires a person to have their Elemental Alignment in their Aether to be altered towards a specific element for the Tempering to work.

For Example, Titan tempering requires to put a being's Aether into a strong Earth Element alignment thus eventually their Aether alignement will slowly become nothing but Earth Element.

It basically means the process of turning into a Sin Eater is the same Process of becoming Temper but with a different Element.

The cure method is not to simply shift light alignment back to normal state but to shift the entire Aether of a Being back to Normal State either from Fire, Water, Light, Darkness, and etc.

**Alleo** · 11-07-2019 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by EdwinLi

It is explained in that cutscene that Tempering requires a person to have their Elemental Alignment in their Aether to be altered towards a specific element for the Tempering to work.

For Example, Titan tempering requires to put a being's Aether into a strong Earth Element alignment thus eventually their Aether alignement will slowly become nothing but Earth Element.

It basically means the process of turning into a Sin Eater is the same Process of becoming Temper but with a different Element.

The cure method is not to simply shift light alignment back to normal state but to shift the entire Aether of a Being back to Normal State either from Fire, Water, Light, Darkness, and etc.

Hm must have been long ago because I honestly dont remember them talking about tempering that way. I only remember that people with strong will can resist tempering a bit longer but will also succumb to it over time (yet at the same time other primals need to actively use an ability to temper..) and that people with echo may not only resist it but can overpower them. Yet when we meet the Lightwardens its not our echo that protects us from their Light when we consume it but our blessing which are two different things.

Another difference is that tempered people often still keep their own look but are just mindcontrolled while the ones with light will always lose theirselves and turn into monsters. You just needed one attack from one higher sin eater and you are done for. While tempering seemingly needs to be overdone to truly turn someone into a monster. Why such differences between these? And then we have the void sent which are also turned into monsters while those tempered by Zodiark are keeping their normal form and some sense of self.

About Angelo and Alisaies plan:

If it truly just needs to balance out the aether then can Alisaie even do something with Angelo? Because as far as we know right now that familiar was there to start the flow of aether again but seemingly that should only function with people that have too much light because its just their aether (and mind) that is stagnating. But if you have someone tempered by Titan this should not work since its not too much Light in that case. So what would they need to manage it there?

I am in the end not sure if this is truly a solution for tempering and I am not sure if I would like it to be that way either. On one side it would be great to have something to save people on the other side it will make primals even less dangerous and takes one dramatic part of the story out of it.

**EdwinLi** · 11-08-2019 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Alleo

Hm must have been long ago because I honestly dont remember them talking about tempering that way. I only remember that people with strong will can resist tempering a bit longer but will also succumb to it over time (yet at the same time other primals need to actively use an ability to temper..) and that people with echo may not only resist it but can overpower them. Yet when we meet the Lightwardens its not our echo that protects us from their Light when we consume it but our blessing which are two different things.

Another difference is that tempered people often still keep their own look but are just mindcontrolled while the ones with light will always lose theirselves and turn into monsters. You just needed one attack from one higher sin eater and you are done for. While tempering seemingly needs to be overdone to truly turn someone into a monster. Why such differences between these? And then we have the void sent which are also turned into monsters while those tempered by Zodiark are keeping their normal form and some sense of self.

About Angelo and Alisaies plan:

If it truly just needs to balance out the aether then can Alisaie even do something with Angelo? Because as far as we know right now that familiar was there to start the flow of aether again but seemingly that should only function with people that have too much light because its just their aether (and mind) that is stagnating. But if you have someone tempered by Titan this should not work since its not too much Light in that case. So what would they need to manage it there?

I am in the end not sure if this is truly a solution for tempering and I am not sure if I would like it to be that way either. On one side it would be great to have something to save people on the other side it will make primals even less dangerous and takes one dramatic part of the story out of it.

As I said the cure method is to focus on the Aether itself rather than one Element of the Aether. You are focusing too much on the belief that it will only work on Light Element of the Aether but that same cutscene already stated the method of restoring the flow of Aether required stabilizing the Elemental Alignment of the person's Aether into equalibrium for it to start flowing normally again which also then lead to Alisaie realizing temper people tend to have the same issue when they become temper as their Element Alignment is shifted from Equalibrium into a specific Element such as Titan's Temper shifting towards Earth Element which then lead to Alisaie mentioning this same method may work as well on her Kobold friend since when he summoned Titan, he became Temper by titan as a side-effect of the summon thus leading to his constant struggle to recover from the death of his parents as the Titan Temper is keeping him in a state of despair.

Primal effect of temper can be stopped at a certain point because the Primal controls the extent of the effect thus why only those chosen may be turned into a Monster focused on a Specific Element such as Leviathan's minions being Temper people who turned into Water Element creatures due to having their Aether greatly shifted towards Water.

Sin Eaters are basically Temper without a Master thus they are basically Wild Tempers. Without a Master to control the extent of the effect, they will continue to change into Sin Eaters. However, with a Master their transformation can be stopped at a certain point such as it was with Arbert's Companions in the Job Role Quest where they were made into Sin Eaters by Vauthry thus Vauthry made certain their transformation stopped at a point where they still at least kept their original appearance with a bit of Sin Eater skin on.

**ObsidianFire** · 11-08-2019 04:52 PM

The only time we've ever seen Tempering being "reversed" is by Bahamut with Nael and Louisouix/Phoneix. And he was the one that Tempered them in the first place! At no other time do we see Tempering being reversed.

It's important to remember that the people Alisae is fixing are not Sin Eaters yet. As far as I can tell, it would be better to compare actual Sin Eaters to people who are Tempered. And as far as we know, there's no "reversing" someone once they become a Sin Eater. The people who Alisae is working with would probably correspond to people who were around a Primal for a long period of time, but did not get Tempered yet. It's also worth noting that as far as we can tell, Tempering is a binary state of being. You're either Tempered, or you're not. Once you are Tempered, there are varying degrees of it, but that doesn't negate the fact that a person is Tempered.

Personally, I have a really hard time seeing Tempering getting fixed like this. Mainly because I get the feeling that if it was possible, the Ancients that were not Tempered by Zoidark would probably have tried to un-Temper the ones that were. And yet the Ascians are still Tempered by Zoidark. So however Tempering "gets fixed", I have to be able to buy that the Ancients couldn't discover it or (if they did discover it) pull it off. Which... I have a hard time doing. The Ancients knew more about aether manipulation then anyone did. Certainly more then we know. And the only time we've ever seen the Ascians really surprised at something we did was when we invented Time Travel. Which majorly involved Omega, who isn't even from our planet to begin with.

To be honest, I have a hard time believing we're only finding this out about people who are slowly transforming into Sin Eaters now. The 1st Shard has been Flooded With Light for an entire century and people have presumably been transforming into Sin Eaters for just as long. And you're telling me that in all that time, mages didn't notice that hey... all these people transforming into Sin Eaters have really stagnant aether and maybe we should experiment with making their aether less stagnant?

Like... I'd find this whole thing a lot more believable if someone had said that they'd known this was going on the entire time, they just had yet to find a way to make aether less stagnant and make it stick.

**Alleo** · 11-08-2019 08:53 PM

Its just so strange to me because tempered and people afflicted by Light behave so different.

In what stage of tempering are those that have not turned into sin eaters yet and can still think but get sicker and sicker over time? In Eorzea you are either tempered or you are not. Sometimes you get too much and turn into a monster but anyone that is tempered normally will lose their sense of self. Right now we dont know about any kind of stage before that which would fit the stage of people not turning into sin eaters.

If you are tempered you will follow the one that tempered you but at the same time can act and move just like you once did. Sometimes they break your mind too much (like the woman in the Amalja quests) and sometimes you are turned into a monster. But every one that just got tempered will lose their free will. There are no stages between that.

Yet with sin eaters there are. We have those that got only a bit hurt and under the Light would have still turned after time but that now will only need some medicine to get better. The light itself at the same time only turned those that got directly infused with it. People living under it the normal way have no problems as long as there are other elements in the air too. (Since the empy is dangerous) While if you are near the source of tempering you will turn with enough time too. So if you stick someone under Light they wont change until they get hit by a higher sin eater (since the low ones arent enough), but if you stick someone near the aether of Leviathan he will turn over time even without an injury and even with normal aether still in the air.

Then you have those that have a much higher amount of Light in them that stops them from moving and later will even stop them from communicating or reacting at all. This is the last stage before they turn and its the only stage were they seemingly can react to the calls of higher sin eaters. (Halric went out to met that one) But even that stage is nowhere near the same as tempered ones. They are barely able to even move their body, their minds have shut down. This is nothing like the tempered soldiers that fit into society and that managed to smuggle in enough crystals to summong a primal.

And then when they turn into sin eaters they turn into even more mindless slaves. Only these seem similar to those that turned into monster by too much tempering. But overall for me they dont share much similiarities in their behavior at all. Tempering does not slow down their aether. They can move like they always did, they can still plan and execude actions as before but this time in the name of their "god/master". Look at the Ascians and then compare them to those that got afflicted with Light.

The only one that acts similiar to Halric is Ga Bu. And there we dont even know for sure if he was even tempered. Many of the others are not in a catatonic state at all and even those who got their mind broken still can talk, they are just a bit crazy.

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

To be honest, I have a hard time believing we're only finding this out about people who are slowly transforming into Sin Eaters now. The 1st Shard has been Flooded With Light for an entire century and people have presumably been transforming into Sin Eaters for just as long. And you're telling me that in all that time, mages didn't notice that hey... all these people transforming into Sin Eaters have really stagnant aether and maybe we should experiment with making their aether less stagnant?

I agree with most of your post but I believe they would not be able to find a solution in the long time since the flood because the light was always there and I believe they said that it now can only be changed because they are not under that constant Light anymore. Heck the Nu Mo even said that they would be able to heal themselves with enough time too but again doesnt this kinda show that tempering and light affliction is something different?

Yes a lot of tempered are killed but we have one group of people that got tempered a long time ago and are not (as far as we know) under constant primal influence either. (As in constant rain of that aether like with the Light on the first) The ascians are all still tempered even after that long time. Emet Selch himself was living many lives among the mortals in which he probably was even more out of the influence from Zodiark who is not even active right now. Yet he does not seem to be less tempered at all. Heck just one live as a mortal should have cured him from most of it because they did talk that it would probably happen in normal lifetime. Also they are the perfect group to show that they are vastly different to sin eaters and those afflicted by Light.

**LineageRazor** · 11-08-2019 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Alleo

If you are tempered you will follow the one that tempered you but at the same time can act and move just like you once did. Sometimes they break your mind too much (like the woman in the Amalja quests) and sometimes you are turned into a monster. But every one that just got tempered will lose their free will. There are no stages between that.

Actually, no - this example (Loon Gah's mother) IS one of several pieces of evidence that there are degrees of tempering, not just tempered/non-tempered. It's explicitly stated in the Beast Tribe quest that she was demented due to being OVER-tempered, exposed again and again. It wasn't just a case of tempering affecting different people in different ways. You can be tempered a little, or tempered a lot, and being tempered a lot can affect your mind (as with the woman) or your body (as with the pirates in Sastasha (Hard)), or, presumably, both.

If this is the case, then Sin Eaters could be similar to extreme tempering, twisting the body and mind both. It may still be a different phenomenon than tempering, but could still be close enough for the Scions to make the logical leaps they're making.

Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.1

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