Bring back crowd control. Bring back branching dungeons. Bring back ADVENTURE.

[linay]

Doesn't even have to be that simple. Could make it so that maybe your party has more ranged dealers than melee and the decisions you make in the dungeon can influence you to get a boss that's particularly easier to deal with as a caster or ranged job than a melee one. Using hints given through the dungeon or experience with it. Or create different trap patterns on the floor that the party has to look at the notes ahead of time to memorize where is safe to actually run through without dying. Instead of just "every run I've been here, this rile and this tile are always safe to run to, and it always will be" type deals.

That wouldn't work as duties (with some notable exceptions) are meant to be trivialized over time with gear and level increase. Sooner or later those kinds of mechanics would just be ignored.

People would just always choose the quickest/easiest path and stick to it, regardless of the rewards. If people meet a disagreement, then someone is probably gonna get kicked.
So instead of multiple pathways leading to a different boss/reward, why not instead be different linear pathways per run. One run you go left, another run you go right. Clear times will always be the same (player skill excluded), but at least you'll be seeing more of a dungeon (maybe different bosses, too).

Kinda like Left 4 Dead 2, where the AI Director would close up some pathways and have you go down a different pathway (though the safe room would always be the same).

That would be the only way I agree to multiple branches in a dungeon, where the dungeon chooses the path for you each run and closes the other paths.

[Saidosha]

I'd rather have high quality procedurally generated dungeons more akin to something you'd expect out of Diablo. PotD may "try" this, but anyone who has played an ARPG with randomized dungeons would know that it is comparatively lacking.

From there, you randomize mobs from a relative pool per tileset, their placement, don't lock bosses to sterile arena rooms, have meaningful treasure to be found, insert the occasional random event, and basically just not be the same every single time. Offer bonuses for exploration and total mobs cleared with the expectation these should take about 30-45m to do. Those in a rush could stick more the MSQ sort of dungeons where you'll eventually know anything and everything about the area.

[Valic]

That wouldn't work as duties (with some notable exceptions) are meant to be trivialized over time with gear and level increase. Sooner or later those kinds of mechanics would just be ignored.

Even with gear and level, you can't ignore mechanics that can literally define you to die otherwise. The only point where mechanics should go ignored is when the content is dead/gone, meaning when it's able to be unsync'd. In my example, you could make a dungeon where the boss has a circular aoe around him in a large length that puts doom on the players that stand in it. However at a range, anyone can be outside of it and still deal damage, putting ranged/casters at more of an advantage rather than melee's having to dip in to dps then dip out just to avoid doom or rely fully on a healer ressing them until they're brink of death ridden. The other option being a boss that puts debuffs on players who out of range with doom, and a consistent debuff applied that causes heavy damage down and high vulnerability up, forcing most casters and ranged dealers to not be able to hold still or deal anywhere near as much damage as they normally do. Only removed when the player deals a melee based attack (kinda like how leviathan denies ranged or caster depending on the target). That way melee is preferred in the later half and ranged in the former... ultimately the party would decide which path would be more optimal and faster. As an example, say the party has a white mage, a dragoon, a black mage, and a paladin. 2 melee, 2 casters in a party of 4. Well, the white mage has some pretty nice gear and WHM's have really nice damage, the BLM is also really well geared and BLM's are known hard hitters. PLD's also have a lil bit more ranged than some tanks to boot and dragoons while not many still can range a bit more often than other melee jobs. So in that scenario, the ranged boss would be more optimal to face and more up-time to be faster.

Now let's say you have a party of a dark knight, a monk, a scholar, and a red mage. Well, this is obvious at this point... MNK and DRK don't have much ranged, SCH and RED do but RDM also offers some melee abilities/support and SCH has more shields than heals to cover any aoe's the boss does up close to melees. So perhaps the melee boss would be more optimal than the boss that would most of the group at bay. This type of mechanic would cause parties to actually communicate and discuss a strategy in how they would handle the boss, and actually give players a reason to ask why they should do what they should do. Not just mindless repeat of rotation or beat the boss by dodging the things like a simon says layout always does. This gives players a reason to understand their abilities functionality and make a plan together..... ALMOST LIKE A REAL ADVENTURE???? HRRRRM

After it's unsyncable, of course people will be able to do whatever and ignore it all, but as being a current dungeon for a whole year or two that can show up in roulettes too... It'd be a neat idea to force players to understand how to learn other roles than their own and decide as a group what would be the best way to deal with what they're given. Duties don't HAVE to be trivial grinds every single time.

Keep in mind, my example is a mild and a bit extremist idea of one way a dungeon's "pathing" could change so that the dungeon you run isn't just a straight line. Where your group can actually have a choice that impacts how quick the run is and what casualties you'll be able to afford in clearing certain portions of the dungeon. It's not a perfect idea for a set of mechanics and way to create differing paths/mechanics for a dungeon, but it is an idea of how it can be done. Personally, I'd prefer more dungeon content that actually requires you to read, put puzzles together, understand hints, and decipher meanings found in our lore. That's what creates an immersive experience and an interesting dungeon, something that isn't the common. It's partially why so many people loved the 2nd boss of Bardam's Mettle. Finally a boss fight that isn't just "burn it", but instead forces the players to understand how aoe's work and what patterns to take in order to survive and thus beat the boss. Not to mention while the mechanics are the same every time you run that boss, the positioning of some aoe's and how the players move won't always be the same... This makes a GOOD boss fight that depends on the coordination and different types of players/parties that have to also learn how to adapt on the fly based on the visual/audio cues given to them by the boss's mechanics.

[linay]

Duties don't HAVE to be trivial grinds every single time.

Unless we're talking about bosses, which we're not as we're talking about dungeon layouts, they will never get too difficult that they wouldn't be trivialized even within the same expansion. (And even dungeon bosses are not immune, see the final boss of The Burn even during Stormblood.)

And I doubt they would make dungeons that much more difficult considering dungeons are required content in this game and dungeon roulettes are a central part of the day-to-day gameplay. They even provide easier modes for solo instances now, so think about that philosophy first when considering new ideas for dungeons.

[Ryaz]

Instead of branching dungeons, I'd prefer randomized dungeons. Basically, you'll still be funneled through, but the experience will change with each run.

[Valic]

Unless we're talking about bosses, which we're not as we're talking about dungeon layouts, they will never get too difficult that they wouldn't be trivialized even within the same expansion. (And even dungeon bosses are not immune, see the final boss of The Burn even during Stormblood.)

And I doubt they would make dungeons that much more difficult considering dungeons are required content in this game and dungeon roulettes are a central part of the day-to-day gameplay. They even provide easier modes for solo instances now, so think about that philosophy first when considering new ideas for dungeons.

Keep in mind this is a progressively skyward mmo... If it doesn't get harder, ur just doing everything you're already doing from previous expansions. Personally I've felt mechanics and parts of this game get progressively more difficult... It should be that way. I agree the idea to make solo instances have optional easier modes is pretty bad as those were good tests of you having to know your damn job. Those aside, if you read more than just the bold in my post... you can do more to a dungeon than just change the bosses to affect the layout of it. In my example, I offered the idea of hints that provide the party with information regarding 2 bosses in the instance that have mechanics that cater to specific roles and the players can decide which boss they fight next say... as the 2nd boss. One of two choices based on the party's composition/decision.

All this said, it is indeed possible to make bosses and dungeons not trivial through gear/level/stats. They just need to be more creative in how they do it. Like another earlier example, a map marking what tiles/roadway in the dungeon causes instant death when stood on, or where players need to stand in order to deactivate a trap and open the door. Otherwise you're wasting time or having your healer ress everyone constantly, leading into a pull with no MP or everyone with death debuffs. Well geared or not, having debuffs that make your dps go down, makes a slower run overall, and the decisions made can impact the overall effort. These are the kinda choices dungeons need more of to actually be adventurous and enjoyable imo.

[AngeliouxRein]

This thread is basically the same as the other thread a while back that was asking for more endgame content. That whole thread was them trying to show that there are players that want more engaging content but hilarious enough it got bombarded by people who somehow felt attacked. I honestly think it's too late for them to even attempt to make dungeons more interesting without being raged on by someone having too much life in the way and that we all need to get dumbed down for them and their cause.

I mean just look at normal Coil Raids. They refuse to add those to Raid roulette because people got traumatized over meteors and mechanics that actually required your full attention. Even with the power creep of being at level 80, I'm pretty sure people would nope out of there faster than the Duty even showing them what raid they got dropped into. This is most likely why we don't have roulette for Extreme trials either.

And even if we focus on dungeons, ARR is a prime example of why we can't have nice things. I started this game when we were mid-way through Heavensward and the number of times people would tell me how insane Pharos originally was made me really feel like I missed this game when they actually tried to challenge us outside of raids.

SE would have to literally, from this point onwards, to just stop listening to people who always have a life story of excuses as to why they want 2-second dungeons and just create dungeons that cant be completed in less than fifteen minutes. Dungeons that make people think or engage you enough to where you don't even notice how long you were in there could become their focus. But this is all easier said than done. From dungeons to raids, they would have to completely rework the way they think and how they respond to the player base.

Just my thoughts on this topic.

[Kisshu]

I've been thinking about it and there's a few pieces of content where I think the exploration/branching dungeon could work. One of these is a treasure dungeon from treasure map. It removes the "clear for exp bonus" and the "chests give bad rewards" problems since people want to get as many chests as possible. While the current dungeons(left/right) are fun, it's also something we've seen several times already.

Instead, picture something like Toto-Rak with branching path and optional tunnels/rooms. You enter with your group through the portal, the enemies are randomized in both groups and placements while the boss is fixed. The special thing is that the dungeon is made up of 3 sets, from start to the first boss is set 1, up to second boss is set 2 and up to last boss is set 3. Furthermore, set 1 has 3 different layouts, same with set 2 and 3. Some when you enter, you might get set 1 layut 2, set 2 layout 3 and set 3 layout 3. They would have to make 9 different sets, but combining them gives 27 different dungeon layouts. Then add in randomized monster placements and chests and it would be different each time.
The chests would also be randomly plazed, including some behind locked doors so you first have to find a key to open it.
The final chest at the end will hold the best loot, but you can improve it by finding all the other chests in the dungeon. And to encourage killing monsters, they might drop lesser rewards such as materia.

[Grubageddon]

Bring back crowd control.

Sure.

Bring back branching dungeons.

No. Tedious dungeons with numerous paths are not exciting. They are tedious. They needlessly draw things out while adding little. I used to play WoW, way back in the day. Dungeons like Wailing Caverns, BRD, BRS, and Razorfen Downs were abysmal. They were not fun. They actively pushed me *away* from running dungeons. I despised them then, and I despise them now. The dungeons in ARR weren't/aren't as bad as those in WoW, but they're still a bit tedious. The only reason I run them is for leveling roulette, or maybe to help someone else out. I'm not married. I don't have kids to neglect. I just don't like them.

Bring back ADVENTURE.

What? You do realize that within a week people will have plotted out the 'optimal' route, right? And then all those little side-paths will just sit unused by everyone except newbies. Not much ADVENTURE there. Not much ADVENTURE in being stuck in an hour long dungeon, either, for that matter.

[linay]

Keep in mind this is a progressively skyward mmo... If it doesn't get harder, ur just doing everything you're already doing from previous expansions. Personally I've felt mechanics and parts of this game get progressively more difficult... It should be that way. I agree the idea to make solo instances have optional easier modes is pretty bad as those were good tests of you having to know your damn job. Those aside, if you read more than just the bold in my post... you can do more to a dungeon than just change the bosses to affect the layout of it. In my example, I offered the idea of hints that provide the party with information regarding 2 bosses in the instance that have mechanics that cater to specific roles and the players can decide which boss they fight next say... as the 2nd boss. One of two choices based on the party's composition/decision.

All this said, it is indeed possible to make bosses and dungeons not trivial through gear/level/stats. They just need to be more creative in how they do it. Like another earlier example, a map marking what tiles/roadway in the dungeon causes instant death when stood on, or where players need to stand in order to deactivate a trap and open the door. Otherwise you're wasting time or having your healer ress everyone constantly, leading into a pull with no MP or everyone with death debuffs. Well geared or not, having debuffs that make your dps go down, makes a slower run overall, and the decisions made can impact the overall effort. These are the kinda choices dungeons need more of to actually be adventurous and enjoyable imo.

It's not that they can't do it, but I just doubt whether there is any desire on the dev's part regarding normal dungeon designs, although maybe it could work for certain optional dungeons. Then again, maybe not if those dungeons are meant to be included in expert roulette.